Finn5033

I've seen this car for sale for a while now and never thought anything of it. Today I was curious so I looked up the value on nada classic cars. It has the low retail at $11,437.00 and average at $14,625.00. I called the guy and he says besided one paint job the car is completely original and 57,000 miles is low. Seems at $7,900 it woud be a steal. At that price do you guys think this car would be worth buying and holding on to if it is really in that good of shape? I asked him why he was selling it, he said only because he has a 69 cutlass vert that he is putting a lot of money into.


http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hn...936464661.html

tru-blue 442

See if you can't Really steal it
for $7500 cash. Looks very nice.

Finn5033

I looked up Hagerty's value and it has it at $10,320 average retail which is a lot lower than NADA. I know cars are only worth what people are willing to pay for them though. I think I have to go take a look at it.

oldcutlass

Seems to be a nice car for a good price. Couldn't hurt to make an offer.

jaunty75

NADA is famous for having higher values than any other source. The Old Cars Price Guide puts the value of that car in the $8000 to $10,000 range, which is pretty much in line with his asking price.

Collector Car Market Review is in line with this as well, putting the value of a #2 condition '79 Hurst-Olds at about $9,000.

http://collectorcarmarket.com/menus/.../79olcuds.html


The seller admits the car has some paint issues, so it's not a showroom-condition car. However, at $7,900, his price is possibly a bit below the market. But it's doubtful it's worth what NADA says.

Finn5033

Makes sense. He has owned the car for a long time so I'm sure he has a good idea what its worth.

RetroRanger

I've seen a couple 79 HOs for sale in good condition 4-5k....they haven't sold too fast either.....one guys ad practically begged people to on look at it.

They must have sold tho I can't locate them on cl

jaunty75

I wouldn't assume that, if this is true, it's reflected in a seller's asking price, although it may very well be in this case.

People set asking prices for all sorts of reasons. If they're in a hurry to sell, they price it low. If they have time, they price it high and see if someone bites. They can always negotiate lower if someone offers less than they're asking, and they can always lower the price if the original asking price doesn't generate any interest.

joe_padavano

All of those price guides are suggestions at best. Unless you are talking about a Camaro, Corvette, or Mustang, there just aren't enough of these cars being sold at public venues to provide a statistically valid sample. Keep in mind that they typically do not and cannot get private sale data, so any data they have is from public auctions. If your data source is BJ and the like, I suspect the data is skewed.

Also, while they typically don't say how they obtain values when few of these cars are sold, I'm guessing that there's a lot of extrapolation from Chevy data.

Actually, I was on NADA today messing around. I'm skeptical when one of the listed engine options for a 1979 Cutlass Cruiser wagon is a four cylinder...

ThePackRat

Me thinks NADA is only around to help dealers attempt/justify squeezing every last cent out of a sale.

They tend to use the other sources like Black Book & such that show lower more realistic values when they BUY/TRADE cars.

And if you even so much as try to mention NADA at that point ... you get cut off so fast that NADA sucks & is clueless it will make your head spin.

Course' when you completely REVERSE the situation & you're in that cubicle to BUY from them & even so much as hint their asking price is too high .....

Out comes the NADA book ... with its values & info suddenly becoming better than the word of god himself.

Now it's Black Book & the other sources that are the ones that have their heads up their asses & have no clue what they are talking about.

joe_padavano

That's likely true for newer cars, but the NADA classic car values don't really apply to most dealers and there is no "buy/trade" data to use.

oldcutlass

The Black book data is generally 30 days old. Yellow Nada data is 30 day old data that's 90 days old. Dealers use a combination of Black book data, Manheim or other auction data, plus numerous other data mining programs to get a fair market value of current used cars. Then it's up to the dealer to decide what it's worth to him.

Some of the cars for the Antique Guides may not update for years based on limited sales quantities on certain models and as Joe said they don't monitor private sales.

jaunty75

You know, you guys never miss a chance to bash the price guides every time someone asks about a car's value and anytime someone mentions a value in a price guide. Fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Yet I never see you actually put your money where your mouths are. So let's have it. What do YOU think this car is worth?

Remember now, this had better be a price that's different from what the price guides offer and you had better have evidence to back it up, or we're all just going to dismiss it as nothing more than an unsubstantiated "opinion" based on "limited sales quantities" without "private sale data" and all the rest.

Tim Gilliam

I have said anything but I'd go highest of 6500 and I would have to get a real good look to offer that.

oldcutlass

To me the car isn't worth anything. My car appreciation stopped in 72. However I'll tell you how I buy a car. I generally buy for love, most cars that I like are worth around $16-25k for a nice driver quality frame on resto. I work back from there, subtracting cost of repairs from my avg $21k price. So if a car needs engine, transmission, interior, paint, suspension, front end, tires, etc... It's a $3-5k car, pretty simple.

I generally look at ebays sold list to see what cars are going for on there. I use the guides, but stay at the lower end in their pricing spectrum or $1-2k below.

When shopping for a used late model car the price I want to buy at is $1-2k lower than NADA rough trade for a private party sale. Around rough trade from a dealer. Fyi banks will loan 120% of clean trade for those who finance with good credit. That's how they come up with the full NADA retail price.

You have to remember I bought and sold late model gently used cars for a very good living. Which is why I know a car is worth only what someone will stroke a check for.

nsnarsk65cutlass

This is just my opinion, i look at it this way is it a keeper-driver or how much can you sell it for tomorrow that's what determines the value,my opinion will be different than the next guy.

firefrost gold

Finn , it was on ebay last year at this time also pulled about mid winter then came back on in spring. I like that it still has the blue bolts like it should and the right hood emblem for a hurst also. How did the inside look?

jaunty75

Yeah, we've heard this before. It's totally useless.

As I thought, you and Mr. Padavano are quick to criticize others but won't step up when the time comes. With your apparent experience, you could offer some truly useful advice to people who are looking to buy or sell cars.

As they say in that very state you live in, you and Mr. P are "all hat."

joe_padavano

I didn't criticize, I merely stated fact. There AREN'T enough of these cars sold in public auctions to provide a statistically valid database. Please tell me where that's critical.

I will say that NADA claims that "Average Retail" for my 62 F-85 wagon is $9,187 (to FOUR significant figures!). Considering that there probably aren't 50 of these left in the world (and I own two of them), that's pretty precise data. The only one I've seen for sale in the last two years that was in average (actually, better than average) condition sat on ebay for months and was a no-sale at $7,000 (reserve not met). This is the only hard value data I have - to quote Dave Barry, I am not making this up.

Both of mine were purchased for considerably less than $9,187, though both were non-running at the time.

Oh, they also note that two different versions of the 394 were optional in these cars...

jaunty75

It amounts to the same thing the way you use these "facts."

I don't disagree with the criticism of NADA. I think their value estimates are way too high, too, at least if you compare them to the other guides. But they're by no means the only price guide out there.

What I'm saying is that you're so quick to debunk every other source of car values, you mush have some idea of what these cars are worth. So let's hear it. If not, then your criticism is of no value as you offer no alternative.

What you're basically saying is "this car is not worth that, but I don't know what it is worth." Wonderful.

joe_padavano

No. What I am saying is that if someone chooses to refer to these Old Car Price Guides, be aware of the limitations and the size of the error bars. That's all. I've frequently said that a much better indication of value is to check the Completed Auctions on ebay. Assuming the car in question doesn't get relisted a couple of weeks after a supposed sale, at least you have data on a situation where cash has changed hands.

jaunty75

Interesting. I just now checked ebay completed auctions on 1979 Oldsmobiles and found two H/O's where the reserve was met and they were actually sold. One sold for $8,000 and the other for $6,500. Average them, and that's $7,250.

Hmmm. That looks to be right in line with the price guides (and well below NADA), doesn't it?

droldsmorland

If I had the space it'd be in my garage. He said make an offer Ill bet it could be had for 6.5-7K. Well worth that IMO. Not a huge fan of the late 70s early 80s but cant argue that its still a sharp looking car.

joe_padavano

Well, by my math, the price guides you cite are still 10%-20% higher than market. Of course, everyone thinks their POS parts car is in #2 condition, so it's somewhat difficult to compare without an in-person examination.

I stand by my original premise, which is that price guides based on live auction data (and who knows what else) are only ONE source of value data. Be aware of the limitations of the data and look for other sources where cash has changed hands.

Sampson

JMO but the value and worth of old cars could be debated until doomsday. Like Joe said there is not enough data. Too further complicate matters other factors contribute to the data such as cars sold at auction such as 1 owner 5000 org mi vehicles and cars that were celebrity owned. How do they compare with one that was pulled from a junkyard and restored to # 1 condition. If you are buying a car to resell you best stick to something that sells frequently. If you are buying a car for any other reason, like Oldculass said "it is worth what you are willing to pay." Seems like a very good price if this is a low mileage original in good condition as it is advertised to be.

Finn5033

After seeing some of the feedback I didn't go look at it yet. If it was for sale last year I think I will wait a while and see if it is still up this winter and go from there.

joe_padavano

The real problem I've found with live auctions is that selling price is more often about winning than about value of the item. My experience comes from farm auctions here in NoVA. One example is a Rubbermaid 100 gal horse trough. I was bidding against a woman on this used item. She eventually paid MORE than the price new at Tractor Supply.

But she won. Using that information to set the value of used horse troughs would skew the data. Same thing goes for BJ, RM, even Carlisle Auctions.

Finn5033

X2 to on this. I also am not usually a fan of these style olds. But this one is sharp. That is why it has caught my eye.

oldcutlass

You asked a question and I answered it, Jaunty. The truth is that none of these guides buy cars, people do. There are so many guides on the market that there could be a huge swing from what the lowest one says to the highest. It's like religion, which one is right?

Sometimes cars that ought to bring top dollar don't and the ones that should not, do. Just because a guide says your car is worth such n such does not mean your going to get it. Also it could be a point where your car brings way more than what the guide says. if you priced it to what the guide says you left money on the table.

Case in point and a challenge to you or anyone else who cares to guess. Here's what Nada Classic Cars says my old 1963 Plymouth Fury with a non matching or anywhere near stock 440/auto, no air, that was a 10 year old Resto-mod. Look at the pictures below and do a little cyphering with the guides.

This is the car:
http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/...lass/plymouth/


What Nada says it is worth with it's stock engine and trans:
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Ca...Hardtop/Values

What it says it was worth with a stock big block:
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Ca...Hardtop/Values

You tell me what it's worth, we know what the guide says. And I will tell you what I got.

firefrost gold

I did talk to him I think he would drop a few hundo but i dont think he will go as low as 7. That was last year in the fall He wanted to free up some cash for another car he was working on. I like the 79 H/0's I realy like the white ones . I hope you get it !!

VikingBlue

Like it or not, the common adage that a car is only worth what one is willing to pay is indisputable fact. So take all opinions into account, values in price guides, auction results etc and decide from there.

At the end of the day, it's your money. No one else can answer 'is it worth it' for you.

jaunty75

It's simultaneously true and useless to someone who wants to set a price on a car he's selling or a buyer looking to find out what the market is in a particular car he's interested in.

If a car is "only worth what someone will pay for it" or "what someone will stroke a check for," the why does my local car dealer bother to put prices in the windows of the new and used cars he's selling? After all, they're only worth what someone will pay, right? Why doesn't he just write that in all the windows? "Come in and tell me what you'll pay for this!"

He wouldn't last in business 5 minutes.

jaunty75

The point in all of this is that you guys are talking about the end of the day. Yes, at the end of the day, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it. That's true of anything we buy, from houses to paper clips.

But we're not at the end of the day when we go to set a price on car we're selling, we're at the beginning of the day. We want some idea of what cars like ours are selling for, and that's where the price guides come in handy. If we're looking to buy a car, we want to know prices and conditions of similar cars so we know if an asking price is too high or is reasonable or what we should expect to pay.

The confusion that people have with price guides is that they think the guide is telling them what their car is worth. In a sense this is true, but price guides are not prospective. They are retrospective. They tell you what has happened in the past with cars like yours, not what will happen. Given that the movement of history in general and price changes in particular are slow, what a car sold for yesterday or last week is probably a pretty good predictor of what it would sell for tomorrow or next week. In this capacity, price guides are useful.

oldcutlass

Jaunty see post 29 and give me an opinion, I want to do this experiment.

jaunty75

I looked at it, but it's not applicable for three reasons.

1. You're taking about the NADA guides, which I and many others agree are too high in their estimated values.

2. You say your car is a resto-MOD, emphasis on the MOD. The price guides don't apply to modified cars. All bets are off with those.

3. It doesn't matter how close or how far from the values listed in any guide was the final sale price of your car, which is what I'm assuming you're going to surprise us all with when you reveal what your car actually sold for and how far it was from the NADA value.


No guide will tell you what any particular car is worth or will sell for. The prices are averages, and a single, anecdotal piece of evidence such as you apparently want to supply to us will neither refute nor support their validity. Two cars, the same in every way, might sell for the two prices I mentioned above for the two '79 H/O's on ebay. One was $8000, the other was $6500. Assuming neither buyer nor seller was under any kind of pressure, and assuming these cars were approximately equal in condition, we can assume that these were fair market values for those particular cars.

The average of those two prices is $7250. But this value is not a good representation of the value of either of those two particular cars. Each one of them had its own pluses and minuses that, in the minds of the sellers, added to or subtracted from the value of that particular car and resulted in its final price.

But it is still valuable for someone looking to either buy or sell a car like this to know what cars like this are selling for, on average.

Joe Padavano is right when he says that there are large error bars on these values. I don't think anyone is surprised by this or expects that any particular car will sell for exactly the value given in a price guide. But the guides give you an idea, as rough as it might be, as to where the market is on a particular car, and they can help someone looking to sell a car to set an asking price.

oldcutlass

I sold my Plymouth for $28k, If I used the guides I would of left a lot of money on the table. In normal thinking, since the car was modified and no where near original the asking price and ultimate selling price should have been less than what the guides say. My point is there are more things to consider besides what the guides say when it comes to old cars. What did it cost to build it, color combo's, tires/wheels, presentation, rarity, etc... You can take 2 like cars with the only difference is one is red and one is pink, put them up side by side for sale. The odds are that you will have to give the pink one away and the red one will bring over top dollar.

IMHO if you have a nice car that has curb appeal the price needs to be set by what an owner wants out of it, realistic or not. If it does not sell the price is too high and when it sells that's market.

jaunty75

I don't think this is automatically true. As I said, all bets are off when talking about the value of a modified car. It can be anywhere along the price spectrum, and price guides are irrelevant. Why can't a modified car sell for more than the price guides say?

No one ever said there wasn't. They're a starting point. You add, subtract, multiply, divide based on the pluses and minuses of the car in question. I've never claimed that you start and stop with a price guide, and I don't think anyone ever has.

This is irrelevant. We all know that we spend way more to fix a car than what it's worth in the end. I could put a $10,000 paint job on a '70 F-85 four-door, and that won't turn a car that was worth $1,000 before the paint job into one that's now worth $11,000.

This is why valuing modified cars in particular is so difficult (and is outside the scope of this conversation). So much work can go into them that there is sometimes no way a seller can recover anything close to what he's spent at sales time, especially if he values his labor as well.

oldcutlass

So what would have been a good starting point for my Plymouth. It fits you definition of an F85 4door with a $11k paint job. All the guides say it's worth way less that the $30k price I started with.

I'm not talking about recovering costs, whether it's modified or not, I'm talking about value of a particular car fixed up vs the value of one you need to fix up. The guides do not figure this into the equation, people do.

Lately at the auctions the Modified cars seem to be bringing more than their stock meticulously restored counterparts. Sorry I have to respectfully stay with my way of thinking.

jaunty75

I have no idea. All bets are off with modified cars. To some people, modifying a car hurts its value. To others, it raises it. It's totally in the eye of the beholder. If I was looking for an asking price or setting a reserve price at an auction for a modified car, I might look to see what identical cars with similar modifications, perhaps even done by the same shop, have sold for, if any such information is available.

But this discussion has never been about modified cars. It's been about price guides, which use as a standard the showroom, stock condition of a car. That's something that everyone understands. Any attempt to relate a modified car's value to something stated in the price guides is pointless.