lemoldsnut

Over the last two weeks I purchased a console from a fellow member on here. (First let me say I have had many deals with many of the great members of this forum. Almost all very positive. If I failed to describe something right or made a mistake I always try very hard to find a way to make it right. I am not perfect and will make a mistake from time to time.)

About two weeks ago I purchased a console from a member. He stated the body of the console needed repair or replace. He did not post any pictures on here. Another member added that he knew of someone looking for a driver grade console. (which is what my impression was as well) The poster even replied to that as well he bought one already. He sent me pictures via text Never posted any on here and doesn't for any of his parts as it turns out. The pictures I received showed a couple of small pieces missing. But an intact console. So, the deal was fair at that point and so I purchased it. A few days later he said it costs more than he quoted for shipping and he had an extra $25 in packing materials and another $10 in shipping cost. So, I thought ok I have underquoted shipping before so I paid that as well. He told me he would provide a tracking number but never did. Fedex arrived with a box on a Thursday just as I was leaving for a few days. So, I just set it in the shop and opened it when I got back to the shop on Monday after the weekend. The box was created from cardboard from a chinese body part or something like that. It was made from already used cardboard. (I really don't mind that but keep in mind I was charged $25 more for the packing that he had to get) That box also had a thin layer of shrink wrap around it and some duct tape on the ends. I opened the box and there was some used small bubble, bubble wrap and some used packing paper. Not allot. No packing peanuts and there was a layer of bubble wrap around the console (that might have been new bubble wrap) with a very limited amount of packing tape. I had the box laid on it side and slide the contents out. The console was in two main pieces and there was a large handful of other pieces. Clearly the base was total junk. I could also see some of the same black duct tape that was on the box exterior on the inside of the console base as an attempt to hold it together. I assume that was how it was to look like one before. But he never provided really good pictures. Just a few of the small piece or two that was missing. Not a snow ***** chance in you know where of repairing this base.

Oh and the box had no exterior damage of any kind. No dents, cuts, smashed areas or anything.

The process to return this started with a message and then a phone call. At first he was ok. then he got totally toxic and blamed me for breaking it and called me all kinds of names and it just got very ugly, toxic texting when on for the entire day. I was done taking the abuse and was thankful I had paid via regular paypal and they stepped in and returned my money to me, less the extra $35 for packing and extra shipping charges and the $42 it cost me to return it.

By the way he said it cost him $60 to ship it and it cost me $42 to return it. That was a little of a puzzle as well. If it was $42 an there was no real expense in the packing materials the $50 quoted to ship would covered it not an additional $35 for packing and shipping expense.

So, this put me in a position I did not like. I had a horrible deal with a regular poster on this site. (I am not blaming this site what so ever.) I also now see he posts mostly as a parts seller. I contacted a few fellow members I have communicated with before and asked for advise on how to deal with this. The general opinion is if I don't say something others may suffer. If I say something I will be the bad guy and it will get blown out of proportion. I have thought about this over a few days and decided to post this thread.

I am not totally blaming the seller. I should have asked for clearer and better pictures of the entire console. I should have asked more questions. But I also will handle dealing with customers who buy from me better as well. I will do my best to make sure someone knows what they are buying. I will do what I can to make it right and not bad mouth them (not that I do that or have done that) and I will try hard to not assume we all see things the same.

By the time it was done, I would have been in this console more than if I found a nice one and bought it. This would have been an unwise purchase, If I had known up front the real condition of it I would not have bought it.

SO, in conclusion. Ask lots of questions, get lots of pictures. And protect your self.

I have to say also that there is a bunch of really great guys on here and I really appreciate all of you.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Larry

tru-blue 442

I feel your pain Larry. I refunded the price of a column I had sent to a member.
Told me it wasn't correct, so I did the refund.
He sent it back to me with the intermediate shaft replaced with a shorter one.
Didn't even bother to bolt it back together, now I have a piece of junk.

I won't go into it. I have to just chalk it up to live and learn and roll on.
It sucks when you try help some out and **** like this happens.
Most everyone I have dealt with on CO are on the up and up and I'm not going
to let it bother me any longer, though it did for a while.

redoldsman

This is a great site with lots of great folks on here. I would say we are in the high 90% for good members. Unfortunately no place is perfect. Larry, I think you should post who it is but certainly understand if you don't want too.

Octania

I have shipped a lot of parts, and breakage is always a concern. I had ups drop and break a [Pontiac] CYLINDER HEAD. Ruined the pair, and the sale.

For a console, I would not do less than:
Photo the thing
wrap it in cardboard with the ends folded shut for sturgidity
put that cocoon into a larger box protected with 1"+ of

rigid foam board,
bubble wrap,
peanuts,

or the like. Use double wall cardboard from the GM dealer's body parts area.

I have successfully shipped window glass.

Sorry about your loss on that transaction. I have seen some pretty mangled consoles glued back together, even small pcs replaced and re-textured to more or less match. Still, it's best if buyer and seller are on the same page as to the exact condition.

I sold a grille to a guy in TX once. It was a "good part" in MI aka a pc of crusty crap in TX. They don't get crust and oxidation. I quit selling parts to folks down south, at least unless photos are sent and buyer sees all the flaws and agrees that it's ok.

When I take pix I try to do ABC method
A - primary overall shot
B- backside
C- closeups, especially attachments and ANY VISIBLE FLAWS at all.

rcktdoc

The console came from Me and I have no reservations to saying so ,Mr Moyer is being less than honest about this whole deal. I sent him pictures of the console yes it was missing numberous pieces and broken,It was for 450.00 and the add stated repair or NEEDS NEW BASE.I have sold numberous driver quality to show quality consoles for 800.00 to 1200.00. I said shipping would be around 50.00 as I shipped a console to the east coast and it was 48.00.When I went to ship thru FEDEX the cost to ship WITH INSURANCE was 60.xx I went and purchased bubble wrap,shrink wrap,Gorrilla duct tape and shipping tape,The box I used was used from heavy furniture at least 3/8 thick.Console was stuffed with heavy 36" masking paper and also all around inside the box to stabilise it.box was cut down so console fit nice.I used the Gorrila duct tape to completely wrap the entire box then used shrink wrap on the complete outside ,then the shipping tape to tape the shrink wrap. I give My shipper the email address of the buyer and they send the tracking info directly to them. I sent him a text telling him it was shipped and said that it cost more to ship and that I spent more than 25.00 in materials to package it,NEVER asking for more money. He sent xtra on his own. From the first text to me after he recieved the console he accused me of switching consoles and of lieing about the cost of shipping and materials Even tough he did that I said ship it back I will refund your money. Then he sent me pics of the box saying that it wasnt damaged and a pic of console he said was broken in 2. I contacted my shipper and they said that he recieved the console 4 days prior to him contacting me and wanted to know why he waited 4 day to contact me. Over the next couple hrs we exchanged texts him always responding with an accusation or calling me a liar. He sent the package back without giving me an opprotunity to make a claim for damage.Then says that it only cost 42.00 to ship again calling me a liar. I sent him the reciept for the shipping.I then get a message from Paypal that he started a dispute. he escalated that within an hr or so to a claim. Now Im out 500.00 plus Im getting back a console that is suppose to be broken in 2 . I have sold many parts on Classic Olds Never have I had anyone pull what this guy has.I always describe my stuff accuratly and if there is any ? I will explaine the condition to them.I believe I went above and beyond to make sure the part got there as described,in no way did I send a different part or try to cheat the buyer. The console was never sent to me at my address as paypal told Mr Moyer it had to be.I have not recieved back what was sent. By the way I did call him an ******* after he went to paypal and made the claim. I do have a 100% score with paypal. Why would I try to be decietful or lie about a 450.00 parts. as far as me not helping people on Classic Olds I beg to differ.
Its also true I dont post pics on my parts on the site ,only because I am not computer literate.Pics are taken with my cell,and I just dont know how to post them.I do have a friend post pics from time to time but I dont like asking him all the time.
As far as Im concerened now its a matter of principle and I will fight this to the end.Paypal already ruled in my favor on the extra shipping and packaging.

One more thing and Im done I have copies of the text messages so if someone knows how to post them I would be glad to post them to show exactly what was said.



Greg

66-3X2 442

If the the seller/shipper was not given the opportunity to have the package inspected by the shipping company and time to file a claim....well. It's up to the shipper to file a claim,not the recipient.

jaunty75

As we've seen before, all of this just once again points up the stupidity of having a "buyer/seller feedback" forum at all. As long as a transaction goes well, fine. But when there's a dispute, and disputes happen, it's all he said/she said, and all that's left is anger and bitterness while not actually helping anyone else in potential future dealings with either party, which is supposed to be the point of a forum like this in the first place.

The reason the ebay feedback system works is because it's kept short, limited to one post and one response, and it's all done at arm's length.

If the operators of this site had any intelligence, they would discontinue this forum.

66-3X2 442

I agree with your opinion on this site but the eBay system of feedback sucks-period. It's heavily skewed to the buyer and the seller has little to no rights when it comes to leaving a buyer negative feedback. It amazes me how many took sides without hearing both sides of the story on the transaction.

lemoldsnut

Please all read my original post?

To post or not to post:

Damned if you do and damned if you don't

It was not as I was lead to believe, it was far from it, and as soon as I opened it was not happy. He said send it back for a refund and it just got crappy from there. It was returned as he requested and he gave me no different address so returned it to where it was sent from. It was signed for there as well.

I returned it to the only address that was provided.

So, in conclusion, buyer and seller do a better job of learning and telling what is being sold. That was my point.

I did not mention who it was.

Never should a buyer feel he is being treated like crap.

Post good pictures that are of all sides and a full item. Do a good job so we don't go through this crap. And also ask for more info.

I have the communication and pictures but I did not do this to trash him. I did this to advise that we all need to do better.



Larry

rcktdoc

I didnt lead you to believe anything. I sent pics of a console Missing multiple pieces,You made the assumption you could repair it.
I asked a few questions and you started calling me a liar. How else am I suppose to take it? Paypal gave you an address to send it back to,You didnt send it there. Instead I have to go thru more loss because you seam to think that you can do no wrong.Did you realy think that I wouldnt respond ?

The rest of you making a verdict on only one side of the story Shame on you!

Greg

70-442-W30

CAN WE PLEASE GET SOME PICTURES??? For Pete's sake!!! Pictures of it broken or pictures of it unbroken. Pictures of the packaging. Pictures of the FedEx van jumping the Grand Canyon. Any pictures, anyone???

Learn to upload pictures if you don't know how. Ask if needed. People will help.

66-3X2 442

What difference does it make about pictures? This is not a case to be tried by the masses. The parties involved seem to be willing to let it go.

70-442-W30

It was more of a joke than an actual request.

However, it does not take away from the simple fact that when selling an item online, quality pictures can help avoid situations like this. And posting them online in your description not only gets other potential buyers interested, but can also come to your aid in the case of a dispute.

And if they are willing to let it go, that's news to me...but anyway, I would hope that they do. In any case, there should never be any need for name calling.

geowindow6768

$500 for a damaged console!!?? Wow! I was going to sell one with a chip and a small crack for $100 (CAN) with a shifter and I thought I was cheating so I dropped the price.
I may have a gold mine with the parts I have in the shed.

oldsmobiledave

I don't think you recognize the value of the particular console that they are talking about.

MDchanic

I don't think anybody mentioned any of the particular details of this particular console, so how would anyone have known what they were?

I was thinking that either this was a stupid price, or I had a goldmine up above the garage, myself.

- Eric

oldsmobiledave

How can it be anything but a 1964-1969 4 speed console. No other console matches the high dollar values that Greg mentioned.

Best of luck to both parties for a fair an equitable resolution.

rcktdoc

Why in the hell do you need pictures ??? Are you the judge jury and executioner? Or is this just entertainement for you? Paypal was sent all the pics and they are the only ones who matter at this point!
I really dont have to answer to you but Im haveing issues right now with my cell phone sending pics. Have been to verizon and they cant fix it, so it looks like Im going to have to get a new phone.

Whats wrong with picking up the phone and TALKING to a person. When I want something thats what I do.

I have gotten pics before, driven hundres of miles to get there and the item was pure junk and turned around and went back home,after spending Hundreds of $$s on the trip.

As far as the price being crazy......I have sold 4 64-69 4sp consoles in the last 5 years and none were sold below 800.00.



Greg

66-3X2 442

Thank you for your expertise,input,guidance,concern etc. in this matter. Most of us including the seller of this console has been involved in owning,buying,selling and restoring Oldsmobiles for many many years and you have been in the hobby how long?

70-442-W30

Thanks for proving you're as judgmental as your avatar. That's cool. Makes no difference to me how long someone has been in the "hobby." Some of this is just common sense.

70-442-W30

Look, I agree, talking to a person can go a long way. Forget making me the "villain" here. I don't need any pictures, as that wasn't my real point. My point was to take pictures of the items you are posting and put them online for everyone to see with your item post. Sell the item with pictures. It's marketing 101. Surely you have a camera besides your cell phone camera.

I don't really care how it all works out. You win some, you lose some. That's something else that everyone realizes that when you've been in business for a while, things like this just happen. Not much you can do but take the high road and try to do what's right.

66-3X2 442

Yeah,I can tell by some of your questions that common sense is becoming a rare commodity.

lemoldsnut

Keep in mind I did this to advise others to be careful when buying and selling. I did not mention who sold this. He did that. I will attach a picture of the totally undamaged box, and the console that was pulled out of that box. Keep in mind he said he spent $25 on packaging. Do any of you see $25 worth of packaging? I sure don't. I can buy at full retail enough large bubble, bubble wrap to wrap a console about 5 times. Not a few loose wraps of small bubble, bubble wrap. The conclusion is either the poor packaging did not protect the "console" or it was in this condition when packaged.
Calling this a console is really crazy. It is some console parts.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...p-console.html

The pictures I was provided showed a few chunks missing. The original post was very clear and I will past that here as well.

I just want to move on.

Larry

70-442-W30

Oh my. I'm so embarrassed for asking questions. As if Oldsmobile knowledge is the ultimate identifier if someone has any common sense. Truly, one of the best indicators to me of who you are is exactly how your presence in my threads is non-existent. May be doing me a favor really. Thanks. You seem to only show up in the controversial threads for some reason.

But for the issue at hand here in this particular thread: One thing to keep in mind is that as a seller, the shipping/packing costs need to account for the time and effort involved and also any expense like transportation to the drop off. As an experienced seller, surely it is a known fact that transportation costs more to different areas of the country. You need to account for that in your estimate up front, or be willing to absorb some of the loss in your price. Mentioning it to the buyer as if you did them a favor after the fact isn't really helpful to you or them. However, as you said, there was no asking for the extra funds. So maybe the inclusion of them by the buyer was just a misunderstanding.

And just so it is known that I'm no novice on this matter, I've sold on eBay as a PowerSeller and also on Amazon (with their "GREAT" A-Z Guarantee that applies to even marketplace sellers - ) I've sold to countries around the world and have separately been involved in the marketing of many hundreds of thousands of dollars of online sales. So I do know what I'm talking about here. Just felt the need to justify my background because I'm sure 66-3X2 442 will ask for it any second now.

1.) Detailed pictures with the listing
2.) Clear shipping costs
3.) Hopefully a happy buyer with no surprises

Moving on to the bigger picture: How can this be resolved? What do each of you want out of this?

66-3X2 442

I couldn't care less what your background is. I don't care if you're a power seller all over the world with eBay,a genius in the marketing world with hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales. I'm not posting in threads about you or your car because I have nothing to add to the conversation. You were so happy to reach the 1000 post count in less than a year. I've been here since 09 and only have double the posts you have. That's a true indicator of somebody who likes to hear their self talk One question though,if you're so smart,why did you have to ask about the installation of the shocks on your car?

lemoldsnut

It's done.

I have nothing and it cost me $77 in the end to have it.

I am licking my wounds and moving on.

My point all along was:

Buyer be better at asking and paying more attention, Ask for many pictures. Phone calls are great but talk is cheap.

Seller be as informative as you can and show all issues and make sure the buyer understands what they are buying. The truth will eventually be seen.

I paid the extra when he presented it as the expense of shipping it. If he did not want it why did he mention it? That because I too have bought and sold Olds cars and parts for over 35 years. I have owned 70 of these cars and I have made mistakes. I try to improve and not make the same mistake over and over. Read my posts. I was in the beginning and all along giving advise to others and saying I should have asked for more information. He also should have done a better job of being more up front on the condition and done a much better job packaging.

I want nothing more then to help others not go through this.

Larry

rcktdoc

Sorry I dont believe that at all. My shipper was there when the box was opened. He made the comment that it was packaged very well and could not understand why you shipped it back to him . All the documentation was sent back to Paypal so we will let them make their decision.
I filed an appeal on this last week.You have done nothing but call me a liar from the beginning,Didnt send the console that I sent pics of ,didnt spend 25.00 on shipping material ,didnt cost me 60.00 to ship. Why would I try to screw someone over a 500.00 transaction on an Oldsmobile website. That would be shear suicide. Think about it.
Greg

70-442-W30

Yeah, if you haven't noticed, this site and most forums are about a conversation and participation. Has nothing to do with "self talk" as you call it. Believe it or not, the owners of this site are probably quite thankful I have had a lot to say, (CPA, CPM, etc.) But that's not something you would know about. And that's fine, because not everyone can be an expert about everything. Kind of like the shocks...big deal...I don't do projects like this much so asking A QUESTION...oh my...so I don't screw up anything on a car that was my father in law's. Yes, totally out of line.

70-442-W30

I personally have a problem believing that one parts guy would ever try to pull one over on another parts guy.

Octania

Oy that IS broken, I'm not saying any more about the above particular mess of a deal.


In general though...


My favorite method to avert shipper damage-
Wrap the item in cardboard.
Wrap that cocoon in a larger box with 1+" of foam board, bubble wrap, peanuts, etc.
newspaper is NEVER packing material.


The heavier and more valuable, the more packing it gets. Replica intakes are bolted to a wooden crate which is then filled with packing foam board then cardboard wrap over everything.


Maybe we need a room / forum with stickies on best methods for shipping common pcs... what is known to work.

rcktdoc

Im real happy you have owned 70 cars. If you want to compair packages,Ive owned well over 300 oldsmobiles 38 W cars and Im 63 years old and have been doing this for over 45 years. Havent run into anyone like you in a long time.

Greg

66-3X2 442

You have a neat car and a great story,that I will give you. The problem is whether you realize it or not,you are way overboard with it. I have a very nice 66 tri carb car that won Best Of Class @ the Olds Nationals last year in Milwaukee. I got a lot of congratulations and positive feedback on it here. I haven't posted not one thing about it since nor do I talk about my car much either. Why? because it doesn't define me as a person and a car has never made anybody a better person. I'm done with this pi$$ing match,you win.

70-442-W30

Yawn. Never said anything about the car making a person. Never.

lemoldsnut

I am curious who your shipper is?

He was there when you opened it after it was returned and said it was packaged very well? Is that right?

Did he know how you presented it to me?

Who is the shipper?/

rcktdoc

You should know you sent the package back to him You also have a copy of the reciept for the shipping to you,you know the one that you said couldnt have cost $60.xx. I had to go down there to pick it up and opened it up in his presence . I figured it would be best so he could take pictures and document the whole thing so you couldnt tell paypal another story and you couldnt call me a liar again. Yes on Monday I showed him the pics of the console before I shipped it and they were also sent to paypal.

Greg

lemoldsnut

Funny Greg you told paypal you did not get it.

Thanks for now saying the truth.

They have been copied this thread.

It didn't say it could not have cost you that. I said it cost me $42 to send it back.

rcktdoc

I have told the truth all along,dont mix my words, I didnt get it, My FEDEX shipper did,I had to go there on Monday. I told Paypal on Friday after they said that the shipment was signed for that I didnt get it and it wasnt sighned for by me I tracked the shipment on Fedex and saw at that time you didnt send it back to me,Paypal has documentation and proof of that ,which was sent by Fedex to paypal. You are a real coniver arent you. Maybe you should start telling the truth.

rcktdoc

You know what the truth is??? The truth is I was at FEDEX when I called and talked to a Paypal agent on Monday when we were opening the box.

lemoldsnut

The truth is very basic. I was under the impression you are selling a console that had a few pieces broken out of it and missing. You even described it as a repairable console. I was not the only one that was under that impression if you go to the thread where you listed it you will see that. The pictures that were text to me showed a few pieces missing but not a console that was basically destroyed. When I opened it I immediately was concerned because it was nothing like what I was presented it was. I shared that with you and I spent my $500 so yes I was concerned. You told me send it back you did not give me a different address or tell me hey I have a different address to return it to then. PayPal did not provide me with a different address either. I informed you that FedEx told me that they saw no reason for a freight claim because there was no damage to the Box their words were either it was inshcficiently packaged or it was damaged prior to Packaging when I told you that you bad mouthed me and blamed me for it being damaged.
It cost $42 at fedex to return it to the only address to this day I have been provided.


I am out $77 and have nothing to show for it other than all this heartache from you.

You say you can't figure out how to post pictures. Time to get with the times and learn
If someone is not happy with what they received from you, you should figure out why and try to understand the description was not clear. At least clear enough.

I hope no body ever feels I have treated them like you have treated me.

I am done with this.

rcktdoc

You are unbelievable, Paypal told me that they sent you my address I saw it on the paypal arbitration site. NOW whos the liar. You sent the package back to a business which automaticly reduces the price! When you shipm to a residence it costs more! Did you insure it for 500.00 Like I did when you sent it back? or just the basic and sent it back? Are you out in the boondocks or in town? These are all variables that change the price of shipping.If you sell as much as you claim you should know all this.Or maybe Just Maybe you are leaving things vaige just to try and make me look like the bad guy.
You admit that the pics I sent showed it NEEDED PIECES. I said I thought it needed a base. I sent you an intact console.Then you send me back a completly busted up console leaving me no recourse to recoupe my Money.Now dont forget to send the rest of this thread to paypal.