Joffroi

My lack of experience with cars is asking for your help again. There are only a handful of days to still drive the SX to work before winter and I'm trying to enjoy them while I can. On my drive back from the office, exiting from the interstate I found that it was a little tougher to stop my car. A few miles later in my neighborhood, I decided to test my brakes a little more. Even going just 30mph and if I "slammed" my brakes, my car "rolled" to a stop. Something is up. Here are pictures of my brake fluid and some questions I hope you can answer...

1) Am I just running low on brake fluid?
2) Do I need to buy a specific kind?
3) Does it just need to be topped off?
4) Any other issue?

Thanks again!





My Blog Post Link about this

compedgemarine

as low as that is I would say there is a leak some where. most likely a front caliper is leaking. you need to pull the front wheels and look everything over really good. it definatly needs fixed before you drive any more.

cutlassjoe

Is the pedal going right to the floor, or is the pedal just hard like when you push the brake pedal down when the car is not running, and there is no vacuum? I don't know if it is just the picture, but the fluid looks pretty bad. I am just wondering if there is rust in the lines or the master is toast.

joe_padavano

You may or may not be losing fluid. The front reservoir is larger because the calipers draw fluid into the piston cavity as the front brake pads wear. You should be checking and topping off regularly. When you replace the front pads, you need to force the pistons back into the calipers, which will push the fluid back into the M/C. If you've been regularly topping off, you would need to remove some fluid from the M/C before pushing the pistons back into the calipers.

Check your front pads for excessive wear. Also, the brake fluid looks pretty cruddy in those photos. It may be time to flush and refill.

Aron Nance

From the looks of the fluid, I would recommend )highly) as Joe said, a flush and refill of fluid. I just had the same problem last weekend with two '68's, and both of them had bad master cylinders, with the same symptoms. Good luck.

citcapp

X2 on what Joe said. Flush those lines. Also check for wear on the front brake pads while your at it. If fact give the whole braking system the once over.

Joffroi

Ugh, is flushing the brake fluid something that is tough to do? Also, with these old cars, do I need to get a specific brake fluid?

I do see any leaking (fluid around the frame or around the area), but I don't know how much fluid I had to begin with. This is the first time for me to check since I've had the car (6 months).

Lady72nRob71

Not hard, but will typically need 2 people to bleed the system - one pumping the pedal, one opening and closing the bleeder screws at each wheel. Top keep fluid about 1/4" from the top of the master - never let the master run dry or you have to start the bleeding process over.
Use regular DOT3 (or 4) fluid - do NOT use DOT5 - it is incompatible and will cause probs. Do not get fluid on any paint you do not want removed...

MDchanic

+1 to what everyone else has said.

You've got a real problem there - that fluid had to go somewhere, and whatever's wrong, you're going to have trouble stopping the car when you need to.

If you can't find a specific place where fluid is leaking from (rusty lines will usually pop suddenly, poor connections might drip a bit with hard braking, worn calipers might ooze very slightly, leaving a bit of an odd residue on and around a rotor), then the problem is the master - change it, it's cheap.

I have found out of necessity that it is usually possible to singlehandedly bleed brakes, but it's kind of and "advanced lesson," and it's much surer and easier with two people.

- Eric

Joffroi

Looks like I'll have to put my wife to work here.

From what you guys said, it doesn't sound too difficult and I'll get this done before the dreaded winter "no drive season" comes.

Lady72nRob71

If she can sit in one place for 30 minutes and follow the two commands "push down" and "let up", she qualifies!

Joffroi

hahahahahaha

Joffroi

Before I do a complete flush, I want to test out just topping it off and bleeding the breaks. Is this a waste of time or should be able to at least confirm that the problem is due to not enough or bad fluid? And if this would be useful, do I just get my wife to pump the breaks, then unscrew the connection, listen for air, and then re-tighten?

Bluevista

If no air got into the system you don't need to bleed the brakes. Push those rubber things on the cap back in, they sort of accordion down and go flat, fill the master with fluid then put the cap back on and test it out. If you see fluid leaking out anywhere you have a problem.

Lady72nRob71

Have you pulled each wheel off and checked for leaking calipers, wheel cylinders, or connections?
Do this first.
If no leaks can be found, then do the flush / bleed.
I would remove the old fluid from the master cyl. before hand. Then fill with new fluid.

I still like the old bleeding method. Glass jar with a clear tube going into it from the caliper/wheel cyl.
Unscrew the bleeder screw, tell wife to push brake pedal to floor, snug the bleeder screw, tell wife to let pedal up, unscrew, push down, tighten, let up, etc.........
Keep bleeding until the fluid comes out clean with no air bubbles. Make sure the master does not run dry.

I usually do the right rear, then left rear, then right front then, then left front in that order.

Oh - make sure the wife does not have her phone with her to keep her attention on what she is doing.

Joffroi

I pushed the rubber things back in and filled the container to see if that would help at all. I kind of felt that it helped, but was still definitely not drivable for safety. Is this was something that would have solved the problem, would the brakes work 100% right off the bat?

@Lady72nRob71

Just to make sure I'm on the same page. Here is a picture of my front left brake. The circle thing is the bolt for bleeding right?



So its push brakes, tighten (which it already should be), left off, loosen, push on breaks (while still loosened), tighten (while still pushed), and then left off.

And do for each break.

Thanks

made in the usa

thats the banjo bolt you will get some air trying this route. You need to work out the bleeder screw just above it they are always located to the top of the caliper or wheel cylinder i marked it but i can never get big pics to post its in yellow

76 Regency

NOOOOOO! That is not the bleeder. I circuled what looks to be the bleeder in your picture in yellow. You do not want to loosen what you have circuled as that is your actual brake line. The bleeder has a little hole in the top center of it and that is where the brake fluid (and air) will come out when you have it cracked open and your wife has pressure on the pedal. I would highly recommend putting some PB Blaster or WD-40 on them all for at least a few minutes before you open them. Let them soak up the oil for a bit so they open and close smoothly. You don't want to risk breaking one off because then you will also need to change the caliper or wheel cylinder.

I think all of the suggestions above for the actual bleeding process are great ones. There are also lots of how-to videos online that may make this whole process easier for you. I hope this helps and good luck!

John

Joffroi

Thanks for the pic!! I'm always happy I come here before trying things myself. Hopefully I can get my wife to help me with this soon. There are only a few more driving days left until the winter rolls around :-/

MDchanic

Look, no offense, but this is getting a little bit scary.

Your brakes are important. They stop your car and keep you from driving into things.
You need to be sure of what you're unscrewing before you unscrew it.

Read the manual. Bleeding brakes is on page 5-5.
(if this link leads to the last half of the chapter, use this one).

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but, read the manual, look at the pictures, go out and look at the parts on the car, then ask questions after you have absorbed that information.

- Eric

Joffroi

Thanks for the manual. It is awesome! Don't worry, I never touch anything without ensure I'm not going to turn my car into a nice lawn ornament. I know I'm no mechanic, but I'm wanting to learn. I just noticed in your quote I misspelled "brakes". After that I'm sure a lot of you read that and started wondering what I was even doing with a Cutlass in my garage haha.

MDchanic

But you can be. Don't think any of this is too hard or complicated because it's almost all actually pretty simple, once you get the "feel" for it.
You'll do fine.
The manual is you most important friend in this - go buy yourself a Chassis Service Manual and a Fisher Body Manual on eBay - wait until a cheap one comes up, don't buy the expensive ones.




- Eric

Rickman48

As many of us have broken off bleeders, please hit each of the bleeders with your favorite penetrating oil over a couple of days, and make sure they're loose before starting your 'learning' process!
In the rear, they're above the axle, near where the steel line goes into the wheel cylinder!
I always use a 6 point socket to break them loose, as they strip easily, externally - then use a 6-point box end wrench for the adjustment!

MDchanic

Also, once you are gripping the bleeder with the firmest tool you've got (and sometimes, because of rust, this may be a pair of small Vise-Grips, adjusted VERY tight), sharp raps with a hammer work much better than steady pressure.

The bleeder screws themselves are available at any auto parts store - bring the old ones to match up.

And if (when?) you break them off, it's usually easier to just replace the $10 wheel cylinder or $20 caliper than to spend hours trying to drill out / extract / rethread, etc.

- Eric

BIGJERR

I would change out that hot chacolate your calling brake fluid ..

Find someone to help with some know how if you havent done it before.......

A broke or rounded off bleeder sucks real bad.............

As low as that master cyclinder is i would say you need some pads if there is no leaks...........

chequenman

I looked really close at your picture and it seems you have a split in the outside casing of the Flex Line just before it goes into the Banjo Fitting on the back of your Caliper.
Should check this out first and then look for more weak points or have a Buddy who knows more about Brakes to help.

OldCar_Mechanic

I think it's time to really evaluate the entire system.

I agree that the line in your picture is starting to deteriorate so the one on the other wheel and the flex line at the differential is most likely in the same condition and should be changed.

As was said, these are your brakes and need to be safe. From the look of the fluid in the master cylinder, I would guess that the rear wheel cylinders will also need changing. So why not just get new calipers also and do it right?

You can flush out he lines when eveything is apart and start with new. Maybe DOT 5 also.

I have bled brakes alone many times over the years by myself. Fill the master, open the bleeder starting with the right rear and watch the fluid in the master. When it gets almost to the bottom, fill it back up. When it gets about half way down, close the bleeder, fill the master and move to the next cylinder. Keep going until all wheels have been done. It takes time but gravity bleeding has always worked for me.

Don't guess or play with brakes, it could mean your life, or someone elses. It's not worth the couple of dollars to skimp.

If you are unsure or unfamiliar, maybe you could find someone in your area that can help that knows brakes and has done this before. Maybe a retired mechanic or someone in a car club.
Ron

Rickman48

Brakes are really not something to learn on, as you're taking your life, [and maybe others] in your hands, literally!!
Either find a friend who can show you how, or take it to a brake shop that has a guarantee and insurance in case their repairs fail!
Brakes aren't something to learn on, as your mistake could cost a life!!!
Not to mention the damage incurred on your vehicle!!

From your rusty crusty pictures, I'd be replacing EVERYTHING - hard lines, rubber lines, calipers, wheel cylinders, pads, shoes, hardware, rotors and drums, maybe even the master cylinder, too!

I like to know I can stop, if I have to!!

My Dad, an ex-Ford mechanic, aways said, "do it right the first time, or don't do it at all"! Triple that when it comes to brakes!

Joffroi

Out of curiosity, how much would it run me to replace everything?

Rickman48

Shop around - major shops are going to be more expensive than local ones, as they pay a 'franchise fee'!
Ask around and see if a local mechanic works on the side, too!!
Some guys will work as cheap as $30 an hour, + parts, and let you get the parts - others want more!
Expect; $2000 + at a franchised brake shop
Maybe $800 - $1000 to a guy on the side. Depending on parts!
Glad you deceided to have a 'pro' do it!

Joffroi

ouch, there would go my interior fund :-(.

On a side note, I went on a desolate no traffic road right near my house for old time sake (I guess in hopes that it magically repaired itself over night) to try some things, it it seems depending on the speed, the vacuum / resistance of the brake peddle varies. On slower speeds, less the 20mph if I slam the breaks, the car most definitely halts. At over 40, the resistance of the peddle seems less, almost as if there is something not letting me actually "slam the break".

Just more info. Don't worry guys, I'm sadly not driving my SX in traffic (or turns) until I get this fixed.

MDchanic

Look, put in brake fluid and bleed the brakes before you move that thing, for the love of Heaven.

You don't have to change the hoses - they're not going to explode on you tomorrow - though you should get to them when you can.
You don't have to change the calipers or wheel cylinders, or cut the rotors or the drums.

Just get a quart of brake fluid (DOT 3 or 4, doesn't matter), pour it in the master cylinder, follow the directions in the manual, and bleed them.
Use penetrating oil on the bleeders, and maybe you'll get lucky and none will break.
If they break, then change out the whole wheel cylinder or caliper.
If that's too much, then have a buddy help you, or find a local guy to do it in your driveway.

Keep it simple and cheap, don't bite off more than you can chew.

All you need to do RIGHT NOW is bleed the brakes, but you DO NEED to bleed the brakes.

It is a BAD FEELING when the brakes fail completely, and the pedal goes right to the floor, and you're not going any slower than you were a second ago.

- Eric

coltsneckbob

I would not have a wife or anyone else pump the brake if you're considering bleeding yourself. It is hard to coordinate and frankly never works and you risk either getting very messy or actually drawing air into the system.

You can buy a hand driven pump/bleeder for about $35-$50 at almost any auto parts store. It is cleaner and more reliable. However, that said I agree that your whole system looks "fragile" you should take it to a pro.

MDchanic

To be honest, Bob, I've had better results with a small child than with a wife.
A small child can follow simple instructions exactly, wanting to avoid getting in trouble, and maybe get a treat or praise.
A wife is accustomed to being right, no matter what, and to editorializing, and so may not maintain the necessary focus.
But, yes, I agree that doing the job alone is usually the best bet, as it is simpler and more reliable.

I've actually had better results with slow pumping and a plain bottle than with a vacuum pump - I use a small bottle with a tube through the top, the end of which sets in the bottom of the bottle, so as to be beneath the surface of the brake fluid (they sell these at the auto parts store, or you can make your own).
I place the bottle at a level above the bleeder, so that bubbles tend to rise up and out, rather than getting trapped in the tube.
I open the bleeder and give it a few minutes to see whether the fluid will ooze out on its own, then I s-l-o-w-l-y press the pedal down, h-o-l-d, then s-l-o-w-l-y let up, so as to give the bubbles time to rise up and out.
I repeat until the bottle is full, or until I think all the air is out. Often I can position the bottle or the tube so that I can just barely see it from the driver's seat, so that I can watch for bubbles.
Once I feel I'm done, I close the bleeder, give it a few good hard pumps, then re-open it and give it another slow push, and I'm done.

Either way, he's got to get air out and brake fluid in, or he's going to wind up decorating a telephone pole. We've all driven on the parking brake alone at one time in our lives, but now that we're over 25, that stuff don't fly no more.

- Eric

redoldsman

I have fooled with cars a long time and the first brakes I ever did were on my 1940 Ford. Over the years I have done my share of brakes. I have had two 1972 Cutlasses and neither of them had any brakes when I bought them. For me, bleeding brakes on these cars is a nightmare. I learned about bench bleeding the master cylinder a long time ago. I was never able to get all the air out of the system. I took it to NTB (Then NTW) and had them pressure bled and flushed. Best money I ever spent. It does not cost much and I highly recommend it.

MDchanic

I don't mean to sound contradictory, as we've all had our own experiences with this, but the only vehicles I've ever had trouble getting the air out of were motorcycles with 1970's-'80's disk brakes, which required more pumping that any normal person would think you'd need (but which you can easily do single-handed).
Other than that, I've found that with a few pumps of the pedal and cracking the right bleeders or joints, it's all done (though I have found '40's Fords to be a bit tricky at times).

- Eric

redoldsman

I guess you are a better brake person than I am. Interesting I had few problems with the 40 Ford which was my first car and I was 16.

Joffroi

Well, I did just drop it off to NTB since they have free brake inspecton. They just called and said fluid was leaking in my booster and that and the master cylinder needs to be replaced. That with a flush would be $500. I'm not sure how they could actually tell it was leaking in the booster. That's a lot of free labor for free. Do you agree with this. Should I just get flush and see what that does? I can get the new parts from advance autoparts for $120. Is it tough to replace?

MDchanic

A bad master would very likely do just what you've seen, and, with no obvious leaks, is the most likely problem. Removing the mounting bolts and pulling it away from the booster would reveal brake fluid on the booster side, where it shouldn't be, making an easy diagnosis.

As for $120 in parts, I show a rebuilt master from Advance for $17.09.

If it were me, I'd drop twenty bucks on a master, remove the two linesthen remove the two nuts holding the master to the booster,
then remove the master,
then bench bleed the new master as described in the instructions that come with it, reattach, tighten fittings almost all the way, bleed it from the fittings once or twice, then just drive it if you've got a good pedal, and bleed the whole system when you've got the chance (but hopefully within a day or two, because that fluid looked like $hit).

- Eric

ps: RedOlds - I've found on the '40's Fords that sometimes you can trap a bubble in the curve where one of the brake lines goes upward from that big junction on the back of the master, and it can be a real pain to get it out.

Rickman48

MDMechanic - many of us could recommend a lot, but when someone doesn't know a bleeder screw from a brake line, ------------------
Has he tools, or know how to use them???????
Sure, that price is a little high, but what if he forgets to align the pushrod, not mentioned by anyone? Or, [God forbid] leaves it out???
Not for the inexperienced - period!!
At least the shop he went to has a warrantee and Liabiity Insurance - in case!
Found out the hard way when wife takes a 2000 mile '93 Intrepid to the local oil-change place, because "you weren't home, and I want to change it on time, for the warrantee".
Wrong oil filter, blew off in a block, she drives it home, and calls me - "why is it making noise, and oil all over the driveway?? I called them, and they had me bring it back, put another filter and oil in it, and said it'd be fine"!!
Needess to say, it was fatbedded to the dealer, who installed crank, rods, pistons and bearings, [rings?] for some $5500, paid for by Lube Pro's insurance!

Maybe an extreme example - but 'what if' she slid into a kid from the oil??