olds330

I know this has been talked about at some length, but I am having a real problem installing a Pro Comp air gap intake... twice now I have taken a run at installing this intake and with in hours or miles, it begins to leak... I have used composite gaskets twice, both have leaked... two different MFG ... the second time I tried to get this right I even cut back a turkey tray and composite gaskets, still gasket failure... first time used RTV all four side on water outlets, and gasket sinch from bolt hole to bolt hole all four sides.. the second time used the copper RTV and high tac all four sides ... any advice would be great... was thinking maybe using both the complete turkey tray and a composite gasket between that and the intake???
thanks for any input
john

oldcutlass

Where is it leaking?

olds330

I knew I would forget a few things... the first time both the water and runners were leaking, the gaskets failed from the bottom up to the intake runners... more water then oil... the second time, I have not pulled the intake off yet, I just found out yesterday that the intake has failed again, this time it seems that only oil, not water.. lots of oil in the exhaust pipes, not water, just oil... used a qt of oil in less then 200 miles...

oddball

Have a machinist check the flanges to see if they're flat and square.

olds330

damn, sorry, as I said I knew I would leave out to much stuff.. the intake comes with 4 of the bolt holes sealed... so, I did take it to a machine shop had them check it and drill the intake.. the seller did say that they need not be drilled but was fine to drill just the same.. I did follow his instructions to the letter twice... the second time I took a turkey tray and trimmed off the gaskets and placed in the valley to help hold back any oil pressure from hitting the bottom of the gaskets the second time around.. I was trying not to make this post to long and windy, sorry about leaving out this information..

oldcutlass

Are you sure that the intake is sucking the oil and not your PCV?

olds330

new PVC baffle in the valve cover, bottom of carb and oil breather on other side, all new, fresh rebuilt engine 400E block G heads PVC seems to be working as all of the ones I have ever had.. not saying it is not the PVC, but seems to be working fine

m371961

Were the heads milled? Blocked decked? Just a thought, I know on some engines this can change the angle enough to cause troubles.

oldcutlass

Disconnect your PCV and plug the line to see if that cures it before yanking the intake. Simple test

johnnyjaws

your not using rubber or cork gaskets on the ends of the intake areu u need to use atv only on the ends a nice thick bead and let it dry over night

olds330

no, rtv no rubber... engine is nice and dry... the first time water leaked
as well as oil, that does not appear to be the problem this time.. no steam out of the exhaust

cutlassefi

To what? That won't help unless you have some sort of reference.
Take the intake and lay it on the heads, with no gaskets, tray, nothing. See if the angle of the intake flanges match the angle of the intake side of the heads. You should only have a few thousandths difference in the two angles.
My bet is your putting it on "flat" one time then the next time tilting it to one side/way or another.

Check that and let us know.

olds330

ok, lost me on that??? when I changed gaskets after the built because of steam out the exhaust... I did in fact use a feeler gauge per machine shop... less the 004th... thinking here that a .060th gasket should take care of this,,, unless I am missing something here?

cutlassefi

So when you lay the intake on the engine without any gaskets, the angles of the intake side of the head as well as the intake flange itself are parallel?
Is the face of the intake flat?

olds330

if I understand that last question, yes..... the only part of the intake that
for obvious reasons, I can not get a feeler gauge in the middle of the intake where it mates up to the base of the heads.. using said feeler gauge on the 3 side that I can slide it in, its .004th pretty much all the way around... again, I am still of the mind that .060th of a composite gasket should seal this up... now the first time I replace this, I did follow to the letter the install after talking with the seller, who has sold and done way more of these then I... in fact of the 100 or so I have done in my life time I have never gone to the length of installing one like I have with this one.. in the past all I did was RTV the ends and the water outlets.. all four sides, the rest went in dry.. the first time took it a step further by using Edelbrock gasket-sinch all four sides... after pulling the intake because of steam out of the exhaust the base of the gaskets were socked with oil and as you would expect the water out lets were leaking. the next time I did the install, same-thing, only I did not use gasket sinch, I used permatex high tack, and I cut back the gasket ends of the turkey tray and placed that in... placed the intake down from the top... no one side to the other... torqued the bolts to a total of 28 lbs creep-ed up on that.. let it set up for 48 hrs.. torqued again... then 96 hrs later I fired it up to normal running temp, changed the oil, let cool for a day, and re-torqued again... and several times after that... then went for around trip ride of 200 miles, no steam... I did fail in not checking the exhaust pipes at that time but did check the oil, down almost a qt... in 200 miles??? the next day put the qt of oil back in and another ride, this time about 170 miles round trip, same amount of oil loss.. that's when I checked the exhaust pipes and found all the oil... this is were I am now.. I will cap off the PVC, because its an easy check... am thinking however that this still is an intake problem... so, here is a question or two... has anyone ever tried using the turkey tray (whole) and a composite gasket together, or just a turkey tray and cast heads with alum intake?
sorry to be so long winded, was hopping for a simple answer with out being long winded.. again, thanks for any help...

oldcutlass

I would not use the both gaskets. Try torquing from the outside in.


Intaketorquesequence.jpg

olds330

that is the exact torque pattern I used.. per the seller, I did not torque to 35 only 28... and I did creep up to the 28 lbs.. just in case the PVC is not the trouble maker, I have a new turkey tray and will order Cometic gasket this time... the real question I have about using both gaskets whole, will the turkey tray gasket crush with use of the composite gasket as well? but at this point I am more then willing to give it a try..

oldcutlass

I don't think it will crush, I think it will leak at the metal sealing surface.

olds330

that's my worry, that the turkey tray seal will not crush due to the composite gasket.. which defeats the purpose of using both gaskets.. and of course no matter who you talk to (mfg's) they all say DON"T use the turkey tray gasket on their Alum intakes... yet I have seen it done a lot, and seems to work just fine... I am really thinking of just using stock intake manifold and call it a day.

oldcutlass

I've never had trouble using either one on an aluminum intake. Is this on a 330 or the 400? You have an awesome car btw.

olds330

thanks, this is the engine I have been waiting for years to put together.. 66/67 400E lets see if I can remember , 350 forged flat top 10.5 to 1 = 418
comp cam 42-224-4 G heads cut ..030 (yes they were cleaned up taking into account for the .030th) largest stainless valves we could get in and ported. gear to gear timing (quiet ones.. haha) forged rods.. balanced.. headers with 3" turbo mufflers out just in front of rear tires and my Pro Comp air gap intake.. which seems to be giving me a huge headache... I have never had a problem with intakes, have done more than my fair share, but this one is killing me... I can always go back to stock... I am sure the loss would be so small that you could not measure it.. make a sleeper... I just don't like the idea of another 50 lbs or so.. and really can't make a sleeper out of her with the gear to gear timing... lol

olds330

I really like the white top on your cutlass, have kicked that around for years... now that you can buy the trim for the split top/vinyl it makes the choice of doing it much easier.. I can't remember how many 442's and cutlass's I have had over the years, this one is the longest I have hung on to one, and this was the third one that was champagne gold, really never did like that color.. but the blue mist is a nice look on these cars.. what size tires are you running?

oldcutlass

I've been toying with mine since 2009, my top is painted pearl white with some cool old school pin striping. Mine was born gold, but the PO painted it a funky fuscia color with the white top, see photo album on my profile page. My first Cutlass back in the mid 70's was gold also.

olds330

it has been a popular color for more years then I care to remember.. my Ram is a sorta gold lookin color, but much nicer looking gold... or I am just getting old.. lol

as to my intake, if I can't get something done, I guess I'll go back to the stock intake and put the stock hood back on...

olds330

over the week-end, I did cap off the PVC put a breather in and a cap on the carb vacuum port... while I did not go for a 200 mile ride, I was out for about two hr ride both in traffic and open high way... while having the this plugged up, a couple of things happen, one it did slow the oil burning, but still very much there, and there was more then just a little engine knock... regardless of how retarded I put the timing... the puddle of oil was no where near as large as when I ran her for 370 miles, never the less it was there.. it leads me to believe the intake is indeed still leaking.. so the question is, do I try reinstalling this intake one more time a different way (open for suggestions here) or take the new turkey tray and install the stock factory manifold... open to all suggestions.. I would like to say also, that at least the water outlet seem to hold up fine this time... no steam out the exhaust this time..

oldcutlass

Where is the puddle of oil? The knocking could be a lean condition with a vacuum leak or timing issues. As far as what to do, none of us can see whats going on with your engine.

olds330

its my understanding that by capping off the PVC vacuum on the carb that it creates a real lean effect... as to the oil... well, I have had Oldsmobile's my whole life, and one thing for sure, they leak oil, new or used.. that's why the valve covers have 10 bolts..;-) they still leak, anyway after getting under the car to see where all this oil was coming from, the engine was dry as a bone, everywhere! I have no idea where this oil came out of... the pan bolts where less then tight, but nothing that would cause this kind of oil.. snugged them up a little and looked for some sign, but could see none other then the exhaust pipes, never looked at the back side of the headers, could be there.. I hate like hell to give up on this pro comp intake, but its looking like maybe I should put the factory manifold on with the turkey tray and see what happens..

dc2x4drvr

Just a thought, is the oil filter adaptor area dry? If the intake is leaking a vacuum gauge might show an erratic reading.

olds330

yes, nice and dry... but good thinking.... this was the second time I have put this intake on, the first time it leaked, mostly water.. never saw the oil in the tail pipe... steam but no oil... this time, tons of oil in the tail pipe..

oldcutlass

In my experience with Olds engines, too much crankcase pressure forces oil out the oil fill or dipstick tube. I've also witnessed oil sucked in through the PCV on all engines with a less than steller or no valve cover baffles. Is the smoke blue or white. How many miles are on this engine? Are the heads new?

olds330

less then 500 miles, G heads, ported largest ss valves that we could get in... cut .030 and intake side was shaved to make up the difference, stock manifold worked fine... valve covers have baffles

jpc647

What kind of valve covers? I ask, becasue I had M/T covers, with small, circular baffles, and they weren't nearly big enough. I put a set of 73 Scripted Oldsmobile covers on the car and they almost completely stopped. I'll get a small drip every now and again, but that's it.

As far as the intake, I had to do this a couple of times last summer. I did it once, it leaked in 20 miles. I replaced it again and it leaked again. The third time I had a tiny pin hole leak in the front of the intake near the fill tube, I added a little more of "The Right Stuff" and it sealed it. Thankfully, it's been good since.

Do not use the end seals. I also used RTV around the exhaust ports, and Permatex ( The red stuff with the brush attached to the lid) for the coolant ports. None of these (knock on wood) ever leaked on me. It was always one of the end seals.

olds330

stock valve covers, factory.. nothing fancy or special.. never use rubber end seals... the gasket failure I keep getting is the composite fail and quick.. talked with the seller, followed his words to the letter, failed even faster then the first time...

jpc647

I just used the Felpro one available at any local parts store. They warrantied it the first time, the second time I bought another one. Just for curiosity sake, what gasket are you using?

olds330

the first time, I used the sellers gasket, the second time, Edelbrock...

buzzbomb

use just the turkey tray and the gray rtv or black. coat both sides of the gasket along with the head surface and manafold surface and end rails and set it straight down and just hand tighten till it squishes out a little and let it sit for an hour and then torque it down and DO NOT start the car for at least 24 hrs so the silicone hardens!!!.

If i remember right they suggest 18 lbs torque on the procomp on the website or e-bay i cant remember which?

If the manifold fits well with no gasket when you just sit it on there use the turkey tray.
The thick gaskets will not work and seal it up as it ***** either the bottom or the top when tightened down causing either an upper manafold leak along the top of the valve cover or a lower manafold leak sucking water and oil into the intake ports and engine.

The thick gaskets will either seal the bottom up and the top of the gasket will not seal well or visa-versa.

I went thru this same problem with a SBO 3 times with the thick gaskets, and i bet this is your problem. Try it as you have nothing to lose for sure.

One other thing is get a flat file and make sure the manifold surface is flat with no high spots. I use a long flat file.

olds330

interesting, it is leaking from the bottom up, both times... never run before letting it set up for at least 24 to 48 hrs.. and told by the seller never use turkey tray... like use I had a small block rpm and used both
kinds of gaskets, both worked well... but nothing seems to work for this pro comp, and told not to use turkey tray... 25/28 torque as told my seller

buzzbomb

Give my method a try and see if it works. It did for me. Those thick 60 thous gaskets just do not seal well. The reason for the wait to run is so the silicone does not get splashed with oil and has a chance to cure.
I did make a misquote on the 1 hr and torque i would wait about 20 min to 1/2 hr not one hr as some of the new silicone sealers set faster now

Backstrom

Found this in the DMR online catalog. Have no clue if relevant or not, just read it and judge yourself. I've always used the turkey tray on both iron and aluminium intakes(w-30) without any issues. I even use the rubber seals with a dot of silicone at the ends. No leaks at all.

TECH TIP: A customer once complained that his intake was leaking oil between the intake and head
on both sides near the carburetor. For oil to get past the gasket in that area one or both of the surfaces
are not flat. Remember a surface may be warped from heat and the gasket will still seal until it is disassembled. Then
when the part is reassembled if not resurfaced depending on the amount of warping it may now leak.
This is the way that I install a 307-330-350-403-400-425-455 Oldsmobile engine intake gasket (SCE-179101-
SCE-179102). First all surfaces (intake, heads, and block end rails) must be cleaned and flat. To clean off the old gasket first
insert a paper towel into each intake port to keep the dirt out. Then gently lay shop towels into the lifter valley being careful
not to drop any debris into the engine. After scraping off all old gasket material, gently rub your finger over the surface to
feel for any remaining gasket. A putty knife or gasket scraper can be used. When you feel all old gasket material has been
removed, finish cleaning the surface with an evaporating cleaner like break cleaner being careful not to inhale the fumes
or spray any into your eyes and don’t get any on your paint job. You can spray the cleaner onto a rag and wipe it over the
surface but this will probably leave a large amount of lint which must be removed. If you have never used a take-apart oil
filter you can’t imagine the amount of lint and silicone that plugs up an oil filter on a new engine. Therefore take my word
for it and avoid both wherever possible.
Now is the time to remove all the pieces of paper towel that you stuffed into each intake port to keep the dirt out. I usually
use a shop vacuum to remove the worst of the debris and then gently remove the paper towels being careful not to drop anything
into the engine. Be sure to inspect each runner for debris as it can hold a valve open and cause damage. Now remove all the shop
towels as gently as you laid them into the lifter valley again be careful not to drop any debris into the engine. Visually inspect the
lifter valley and intake runners. Be sure to run your finger thru any pools of oil feeling for debris. After cleaning the intake with
the same process blow out the intake with compressed air and visually inspect for any debris. You can’t be too clean.
Trial fit the intake and strip gasket on the engine. Be sure the gasket is as large as the intake ports in the head and
intake. If not, trim the gasket with a razor blade. Try looking down the intake carburetor opening to be sure the ports in the
intake line up with the ports in the head. It is OK for the intake port to be slightly smaller than the head but never the other
way around. What we are looking for here is to see that the intake is not to high or to low in relation to the head. Hand start
all bolts to be sure you don’t need to do any custom grinding for bolt head clearance. Before removing the intake for final assembly
measure the gap between the block end-rails and the intake. Take the intake block-end-rail gaskets furnished and throw
them away. This is one of the few places to use silicone. One at a time lay a 1/16” to 1/8” bead of silicone around each of the
water ports in the head staying 1/4” away from the inlet hole. Now lay a bead of silicone about 1/8” to 3/16” tall (or taller if
above measurement indicated necessary) from the bottom of one of the rear water ports, across the rear of the block end-rail,
to the bottom of the other rear water port thus connecting the two rear water ports. Do the same with the front water ports.
Determine which way the intake strip gaskets will go and place them bottom side up on a piece of newspaper. Now
apply to each gasket an even coat of Edelbrock Gasgacinch (EDE-9300) around each intake port hole. This will quickly soak
into the gasket material. Apply a second coat to both gaskets.
Lay the gaskets one at a time on the heads with the Gasgacinch sealer side down, being careful to line up perfectly
with the intake runners and bolt holes. Hand install 2 bolts in the outermost 2 holes in each gasket. This will prevent the gasket
from moving. Gently apply pressure around the water ports to press out the silicone and set the gasket in place. Clean any
excess silicone from the water port. Now repeat the above Gasgacinch and silicone sealing process to the top side of the gasket
including running silicone from each water port to the opposite side thus applying a second coat to the block end-rails.
Take one final look into the engine and intake for debris and you are now ready to install the intake. Carefully remove
the four intake bolts holding the intake gasket in place. Have ready, within reach, the four outermost bolts to align the
intake. Slowly and gently position the intake onto the engine, holding by the carburetor hole, and align the bolt holes while
doing so. Keeping one hand on the intake install the four corner bolts by hand, for a few threads, to secure the intake from
sliding off the block due to the slippery silicone. Now install and gently snug up all remaining bolts. Starting with any one of
the center most four bolts torque the bolts working in a clockwise direction and working outward in steps or 15, 25, and 35
ft pounds of torque. After the engine has been run and cooled back down retorque the intake bolts.

dc2x4drvr

^^^^^ I've used this method several times with Fel Pro high performance intake gaskets.