Jamesbo

Anyone have any experience with single stage paint as opposed to the base coat, clear coat.

gearheads78

When you sand single stage it comes off in color and when you sand bc/cc it come off whiteish What else you want to know

joe_padavano

Yeah, "single stage" used to be the only kind of paint before BC/CC was invented. The advantage of BC/CC is that you can wet sand and buff the clear for a mirror finish. Most single stage paints do not let you do this since it will dull the finish. The result is that you get orange peel. Most single stage paint is used today for low-end body work or in locations where you don't want to put the time into a full BC/CC finish - like door jambs and the underside of the trunk lid.

Jamesbo

So you can use it on jambs and underside of trunk lids but you would not reccomend it on body pannels. Is it OK to use two different kinds of paint in different areas?

I am obviously looking at painting options and don't have a clue what I'm asking/talking about. Is there anything new and improved besides BC/CC? [see I picking up on the lingo]

This is not for a show car or even a keeper, but I don't want to go too "low end" as I feel that would be wasted $$$

geckonz08

I used it on an excavator of mine but would not go backwards in years just to maybe save some time -
mike

gearheads78

If its for a metallic color I would not even think about single stage. If its a solid color you will be OK either way but it will not be much more to use an inexpensive 2 stage and will be a nicer product.

silverriff

In my experiences working in body shops, and working with both types, absolutely go with the 2 stage. Not only does it look a hell of a lot better, it also offers more protection from scraps and scratchs. It is also a lot easier to clean up those scraps and scratches with wet sanding and buffing. Even something as simple as black, or resell red look 100x's better than single stage. Bottom line is 2 stage, 2 stage, and 2 stage. If you even have the money, go for a three stage pearl/metallic!

Jamesbo

All the hard work is done. Down to bare metal, cancer removed sitting in primer. My brother in law sold his body shop and retired. So I'm stuck with a car in primer and trying to figure out my next move.

1969 442 code 51 Trophy Blue [non metalic] w/ black Vinyl top.

The guy at the auto paint store said "Although single stage paint can orange peel, it is really closer to the origional paint."

He also said it wasn't necessary to paint under a vinyl top it is had primer T/F?

Thanks for the advice, I am obviously an idiot on the subject, but I guess this is what the forum is all about.

csstrux

You will want to stick to one or the other. Preferably the bc/cc, though single stage is less expensive. As I understand even from the same manufacturer, there are different processes used to achieve the color combos resulting in inconsistencies. Depending on the color ordered this will be more, or less pronounced, but will be there. Depending on weather the color is available premixed or you get it special ordered, variences from batch to batch are to be expected. Order more than you need, mix it all together, meaning your bese color. so everything is consistant. and keep your left overs for repairs. Base clear is much more forgiving to work with BTW. Good luck.

salayc

Single stage is closer to original although the original paint is Lacquer which doesn't really exist anymore. You can color sand and buff single stage as well. The depth is better with clear though. Primer doesn't entirely prevent rust, so I would paint under a vinyl top.
I doubt you would be happy with single stage, as everyone is used to seeing deep glossy paint jobs that you can only get with a clear coat.

ent72olds

Go with BC/CC. As a novice it will be much more forgiving and easier to correct any mistakes made during process. Being a solid color it should be very easy to apply. The trick will be to apply the clear as smooth and even as possible. Avoid any major sags or runs. Those will be hardest to remove during wet sanding and polishing. If you aren't yet finished with the project and want to know more I'd be glad to give you some direction. I am a tech rep for a major auto paint manufacturer . You can PM me or probably better for the folks here just continue the thread.

442scotty

I considered both single and two stage...went with omni single stage acrylic urethane....solid color...easy to fix mistakes...cheaper...worked well for me...wet sanded and comes out looking factory when buffed

Dapapadon

I agree with Scotty on solid colors. When I paint my 70 Chebby truck it will be single stage acrylic urethene. I don't want to have to color sand and buff it. But I could if I had to.

That said, I seen some pretty major runs and sags in clear coat at the comm. college. Guess some of the kids have trouble with clear. Anyway, they always seem to get them out and the finished product looks great!

Don

wmachine

This is a subject that I've wondered about as far as "originality" goes. No doubt that a BC/CC give one a beautiful deep paint job. But I've seen many restorations with superb looking paint that just doesn't look original, because it is "too good". There are a lot of people doing restorations that aren't afraid to "over restore" a car, and even the OCA judging encourages it. But to some of us, "over restoration" is *not* a good thing. (Even Corvettes have have points deducted for this). I don't care about points, it is just an accuracy issue with me. Put a mile deep paint job and aftermarket SS wheels that look better than new on your Olds, and it looks great! But *not* like it looked in the showroom. Fine with me if you like that look, but...

So my question (and this is being touched on in this thread) is, what is the "best" paint to use that closest to original?

aliensatemybuick

Wouldn't acrylic lacquer best match what was used by the factory during the 60s?

redoldsman

You can get a nice finish with either one of these. As has been mentioned, you will never get the deep gloss with single stage (acrylic enamel) that you get with 2 stage. One thing that has not been mentioned is the use of the hardner for the acrylic enamel. It slows the drying time and allows the paint to flow a little longer and thus smoother. It is also true the single stage will look more like the original finish. I helped a friend of mine with a 54 Olds and we had the paint guy use acrylic enamel. He did color sand it and then buff it. It is very close to the sheen of the original paint. I don't think you can buy acrylic lacquer anymore thanks to the EPA. Single stage is probably less forgiving for the amatuer. One other thing to remember is the prep work is the same no matter what you chose.

aliensatemybuick

A friend of mine painted his 1973 Vette (here in NJ) in lacquer just this year, though I think he had the paint materials for some time. My friend isn't known for his slavish devotion to environmental concerns, but I am not sure it it is illegal everywhere; it may depend on your location.

csstrux

Lacquer is what the factory used into the 70's. I believe silver and some metallic blues were were retained into the eighties as well. So for the sake of originality you will want to use lacquer. The thing you aught to consider though before using it is durability, care and maintainence. The stuff is quick to dull, and fade. Weekly waxing is almost mandatory, and over time crows feet form. Your next best bet would probably be single stage enamel. It is less expensive than BC/CC and still durable, much more so than lacquer. I have not been in the business for ten years now, and am not up on the latest and greatest advances but have heard about waterborn paint systems, it might be worth looking into that as well. I am guessing that it is tall ching though, and likely going to fall in line with base clear type finishes, or better. I havent seen the technology in use yet.

ent72olds

My suggestion as far as appearence(as close to original as possible) would be single stage such as Dupont Centari. Obviously, as has been mentioned, lacquer is near impossible to get for VOC reasons. Laws forbid it to be sold in most if not all air districts in the US and by we may see a good portion of this country using waterborne. Southern CA, areas around Boston and by the end of 2010 the whole country of Canada should be using water. There are a couple of drawbacks to using single stage. 1- When SS cures, the resins rise to the top surface of the film which gives it its shine, hardness, and UV protection. Once you sand and polish it you take that critical protection away. This is why you used to see cars back in the day "chalk-out". If you remove too many mils in the process, your paint will oxidize and your hard work will go down the drain. 2- Spraying SS metalics takes real talent, and if you must sand and polish, be prepared to be unhappy with your paint job. As you sand and polish, removing mils of paint, you are also removing the nice and settled metallic flakes you painstakingly laid down leaving the finished product looking mottled or blotchy.
But, if the cars aren't driven often, and are basically indoors out of the elements and sun, high quality restorations looking for 100pts then I understand the clearcoat point looking "over-restored". I agree. In a few years it will be a moot point anyway when everything is waterborne. By the way, only the color coats are water and some primer, the clear to this point will remain solvent based. Until the Feds put more restrictions on the paint co's and force them to lower VOC(volatile organic compound) even further, they may have to develop something else.

scrappie

I painted a 71 cutlass supreme conv. withe bc/cc. The color was code 26 (viking blue) The original paint was still visible in some areas around the windshield frame and after I painted it there was a definite difference in color. I ordered the paint from a body supply store and he mixed it according to the formula he had which was for that year. The bc/cc coat was a deeper blue and a bit darker. It was a nice paint but it did not match perfectly either.
As far as difficulty goes: You have to get the base down uniformly with no striping which isn't too hard but really it "all about the clear" getting the clear to lay flat without runs and dirt and as little orange peel as possible.
I think I spent around 700.00 just to buy the paint and clear.

kevdog442

The Dupli-Color Paint Shop system is a lacquer, its safe and available at most auto parts stores.
I painted a car a few years ago with single stage acrylic urethane and I thought it looked great. Maybe not as deep as with a clear but it does dry like it looks when it went on wet. Would not even bother with an enamel.

bjtstarfire

I painted my interior with a single stage acrylic urethane and it looks great. The process worked out good for me and I am now planning to use the same process on the exterior of my car. The color of the exterior will be white so I think that that will work to my benefit and provide me a look that will be very close to original for '61.

Good luck - it really comes down to what you like and want. Many pros and cons either way...

joe_padavano

Yeah, but good luck finding it anymore. EPA requirements have all but banned laquer paints. You cannot buy laquer automotive paint in most states.

68Tom

I guess I'll just resurrect this thread instead of start my own.

I'm about to buy paint for my car. It's a white bottom with a black top. What do you think, go with single stage or bc/cc?? Can't tell if I want that high-gloss modern paint look or the original look.

Opinions needed! Thanks.

ah, guess this should now be moved to the paint section. no wonder why I couldn't find it. haha.

ent72olds

Depends on what you like not what others like! Original type look, use SS, glossy clear look, use BC/CC. As far as ease of use, SS is one step. Being a solid color, and white at that, it will be very forgiving if you're inexperienced. Only drawback is as you remove mils with sanding and polishing, you remove UV protection. If the car is going to spend any significant time in the hot sun(ARIZONA), could be a problem with fading in a couple of years. BC/CC is not too hard either, BC is very simple to apply, clear a little trickier especially on white becauce you can become "snow blind" while spraying it. Can be wet sanded and polished and offers superior UV protection to SS...by the way the term "orange peel" refers to the texture of the finish. Wether SS or Clear, you can get orange peel. It can be sanded and polished out!

Big Blue 72

Hey all! I live in that hot sun you speak of and my car suffers from a crappy SS paint job. It is pretty oxidized and I don't plan on doing any major body work till I have the driveline and suspension right (which will probably be a while with a family on the way in about two years). What is your advice and recommendation on:

A. Knocking the oxidation back to restore the finish as much as possible
B. Maintaining the health of the paint to prevent further oxidation and finish degradation in the future.

"Big Blue" is now garaged and won't have the same constant exposure that she used to have to the Arizona sun, so hopefully maintenance will be a lot easier from this point out.

Thanks for all your help and advice!

ent72olds

Hey Big Blue, before recommending anything, I'd like to see pics of the oxidation(and your car as well) It would be a lot easier and we could definetely point you in the right direction. Could be a simple compound or could benefit from a color sand first, depending on how thin the paint is. So get those pics posted soon...

ijasond

Go with the basecoat/clearcoat, unless you are afraid someone is going to take points away for having paint that it "too nice".
In my shop, one of the problems we run into with the pre-1960s cars is that the color formulas aren't even available in the basecoat mixing systems. So, many times on these we end up using the alkyd enamel and top coating it with clear.
I run a production based shop where we offer economical paint jobs(that's a fancy word for cheap) as well as custom and restoration type paint work. People generally come to me when they are looking for an affordable paint job, but they know better than to go to Maaco, or when they are doing their own restoration, but can't handle the paint job themselves and they don't want to drop $10,000 for it. I've sprayed hundreds, probably thousands of cars with single stage paint and hundreds with basecoat/clearcoat. Given the choice, I'll take base/clear every time. The price difference on my cost for materials in single stage vs. base/clear is not enough to justify the quality you are sacrificing. The newer single stages are better than ones in the past and most are urethane based now, but they definitely require much more maintenance to make them last and stay looking nice. They offer less UV protection(more prone to fading), less chipping and cracking resistance, they tend to shrink more, and the depth of the shine is not as good. They can be sanded and buffed if it's a solid color, but you have to apply a little more material to make up for what you take off when you sand it. What someone previously posted about being able to make single stage slicker is not really accurate. If cost is a big factor, there are affordable basecoat/clearcoat materials available. I can call my paint supplier and order a $225 gallon of clear, or I can get a $45 gallon of clear. I spray the cheaper stuff everyday and it's fine. It actually slicks out nicer than the expensive stuff.(this is because it's not as high solids).
You have to decide what you are looking for in a paint job in order for anyone to be able to help you decide. I have a great deal of experience with both types of paint, so feel free to ask me anything else you might need to know to help you make your decision. Hope this info has helped you.

ijasond

I can spray a car with the cheapest crap paint you can get your hands on and make it look better than some of the junk I see at car shows. The material only makes a difference if everything leading up to it, and after it is done properly. There's much, much more to a nice paint job than the materials you use.

Big Blue 72

Will do, gotta get it washed up and I will get those pics on. Thanks for your help.

OLD SKL 69

We painted my Corvette with a single stage urethane black PPG product. It came out really well but it did not have the deep luster that a BC/CC has. Easy to touch up and probably was very close to factory shine. I guess it depends on what you want.

Texascarnut

Regardless of what paint system one chooses to use the secret to a good paint job is in the preparation. If you are restoring or going to repaint a car originally painted with lacquer, acrylic lacquer, or acrylic enamel you might want to consider having the vehicle media blasted to bare metal and primed with epoxy. Over time all of the aforementioned paints will craze and crack with age and they will eventually do it right under your fresh paint job regardless of your having cleaned it, sanded it down, cleaned again, applying a paint prep, and priming over with a sandable primer, sanding again and then applying finish paint.

I have been reading all sorts of comments here about availability of acrylic lacquer paint. PPG and others still produce automotive acrylic lacquer paint and unless a specific state has some issue with lacquer paints the only problem in obtaining it will be your local automotive paint supplier no longer stocking it or no longer maintaining the tint system for it. Acrylic Lacquer paints have become rather expensive simply because automotive lacquer paints are no longer used in volume. Production shops don't want to use Acrylic Lacquer because it is far more labor intensive than Acrylic Enamel, which is far more labor intensive than either single stage urethane or base coat/clear coat.

For the I want to paint it myself in my garage person, the best advice is don't even think about it unless you desire to invest in a proper compressor with an adequate water filtration system. Getting a good paint job is not only in the paint and technique but also in the quality of the spray gun being used. A cheap spray gun from a swap meet or import tool discounter is not going to provide you with the best results. A good paint gun is going to be expensive. Why buy hundreds of dollars worth of paint only to waste it with a crappy paint gun?

Then there are the health issues. Automobile paints can kill you! A good respirator and proper clothing are absolutely necessary unless you want severe lung problems showing up in the future or having other health issues from chemical absorption through the skin. Epoxies and Acrylics will coat your lungs and your body will not expel them, plain and simple. Gradual suffocation is not a good way to die.

Though most auto hobbyist are needing to watch the dollars, getting a good finish coat is probably best left to the professionals with a paint booth. Do as much as you can after having consulted with the person or shop that will be applying the finish paint. The thing you don't want to do is to find at the last minute is that your prep work is unacceptable for one reason or another.

MN71W30

I agree with your post except the last paragraph. Basecoat clearcoat is very forgiving paint. I have see beautiful garage paint jobs. Infact thats all I or my friends have done. If you have a solid color thats even better. I always encourage people to give it a try. Most of the guys reading these posts are probably pretty good with their tools and with a little guidence a decent job could be done. Just plan on extra sanding and polishing.
I hate to hand over a few grand for a paint job.
JMHO

Gary's 2 442-S

I guess I am going to be one of those garage painters also. I have done all the work on my restorations so far and I was planning on taking my car to a shop to paint it. I was going to take the car to him ready to paint. His price was 4,000 and that was with me supplying the paint and clear.So,I said why not give it a try myself,since I had done spot painting on a couple of my own cars for some minor damage.I asked one of the members how did he feel about someone painting a car in a garage and he said this " I've seen a lot of beautiful paint jobs come out of the garage on the side of the house(and a lot of wives complaining about the smell in the house). My father-in-law does some good work in an old shed behind his house" That in itself was encouragement to me,that is why I like this site their are members here who are really helpful.

rougebeats

I think anyone with a bit of garage sense can paint a car. It may not be "showroom perfect" your first time around but like anything else, it comes with experience. I have seen many great paintjobs come from garages and plastic sheet "booths". I wouldnt let anyone intimidate me on painting my car. I did all my body work myself, when people told me to leave it to the professionals....but what they fail to think about is -how did they become "professionals"? I know how....experience. I would like to meet a professional that sold thier first go at body work on a car on Jackson Barret. Theres 3 reasons that paint jobs done by professionals are quite expensive
1-EXPERIENCE- your going to pay for all the tricks of the trade that they have accumulated over many years of painting that will be applied to your paint job

2-PREP WORK- A professional painter knows the do's and dont's of prep work that will keep your paint looking good for years to come.

3-The intimidation of doing a good job YOURSELF!

All im trying to say is... dont be afraid to do some research, read some tutorials, and ask lots of questions. If your reading this, then you obviously have the internet and a means to a plethora of info on the web. Some of the best paint jobs out there came from someone who didnt know sh*t at one point and time. Im getting ready to do my own BC/CC on my 64 Dynamic in my garage. If I muck it up, I have nobody to blame but me. But if I do a great garage job then that will only build my confidence. Either way, experience is built with rights AND wrongs.

kurtdaniel

id always go for the second stage,,coz i care much for my olds car..besides, I get cheap paints from Flowmaster Shop anyway..

Nilsson

I just recently purchased a single stage acrylic urethane touch up kit off ebay and tried it out yesterday. The application was with a preval spray bomb. I am using this to refresh and touch up the gold stripes and accents found on the car in my avatar. I have to say I was really impressed with the ease it laid down and the gloss of the finished product and this was using the preval spray bomb. I like the look of the single stage it looks more in line as to what a car finish might have looked like in the day rather the bc/cc. I am even contemplating purchasing my own equipment and doing my own paint in single stage when I am ready to paint the whole car.

MN71W30

The best way to approach the paint job is to have a seasoned painter there to help. That is how I learned and passed on the skill to my son and a couple friends. I needed to tell my son to apply it heavier at times and when to fog on some mettalic to even it out on our 71 W30. Having someone who knows the ropes there will save alot of trouble. There are many different things that can go wrong, temperature issues, lack of light, gun problems, runs, water in the air line, following the mixing directions, and waiting when to apply the next coat. etc. etc. All a guy can do is to try and minimize potential troubles by good preparation and working through the problems when they arise. I would consider hunting down a local painter and pay him just to be there. Another option is to have things all ready, booth, paint, lots of light, where he can step in and paint,
My son made a couple mistakes on his SS camaro hood but learned alot about how to, and how not to, apply metallic colors.
It takes time, but every car will be a little better.

Olds64

WOW! Lots of good info on this post. I just spend 10 minutes and read everything.

I hope to paint the 71 98 next spring; however, I don't know if I am going to try to tackle it myself or if I am going to take it to a shop. I definitely don't want to spend $10000 on a paint job. I don't want to kill myself either by spryaing it myself and inhaling some awful chemical of doom!

I guess I just need to continue to read and figure out what will get me the best results for the right price.

rougebeats

Not to hijack the thread or anything but I posted last week about jumping in headfirst and painting your own car. I have been working on mine for about 6 months and finally got it primed(in the pics). I now have 2 coats of championship white on it now(not pictured yet) and I am soon to spray on the flake/clear coat. Only problems I encountered was an overspray issue which was corrected with some 800 grit wet sand. I'll post more pics when I get the clearcoat/buff on it. Wish me luck.....