Joffroi

I know 1972 is a little different in regards to telling if a cutlass came with the 442 package from the factory. I wanted to get the opinion of the experts here on this car:

https://www.oldsmobilecentral.com/fo...2-Sedgwick.php

Real 442 or not? I like the look of it. Not everyday you see the OAI hood without stripes.

droldsmorland

Wheres the Docs? Something doesnt look right with the front clip alignment and gaps. look for signs of frontal impact damage

Oldsmaniac

Can you post vin and trim tag.... this may say if 455 is original which would lead to it being a real 442 although the 455 co7uld be had in a non w29 Cutlass as well.

oldspackrat

IF it is a factory 455 car, the washer jar should have been on the passenger side fender well. There is an aftermarket rad. overflow jug on the pass. side now, has the washer jar been moved? Or was it always on the driver side? If the 442 appearance package was factory installed on this car, the front sway bar is specific for the FE2 suspension which, I believe, is mandatory with that option package. The passenger side end of that sway bar has a specific shape to it. None of that is for sure, good bullet proof paperwork is about the only to know for sure.

Joffroi

Unfortunately I do not have the VIN. All I know is that is a U code and the owner is stating its numbers matching. I'm assuming no docs.

Mikes442

The 1972 could be ordered with a 455 and not be a W-29(442). The standard rear was a 2.73 and could be had with 3.08 & 3.23 because of the AC. There was no 442 badging on the glove box door just Cutlass.
The W25 hood was also an option. Very hard one to tell.
Look to see about holes that have be filled from a Cutlass.

Joffroi

Looks like it has 442 on the glove box so some stuff was added. But even if I had a real 72 442, I would probably ad that myself just for looks.

alek72us

It say's numbers matching 455 also over flow tank looks aftermarket and washer jar looks brand new. maybe just placed in the wrong spot?

RetroRanger

IMO doesnt matter if a 72 is a 442 or not. if its a U or V code you have the more valuable car if you have a 350 powered 442 from 72 its just another cutlass.

there is a 72 442 350ci on Boston CL. IIRC its about $7500 has the w29 too i think he started about 12k ish, it appears to be in nice shape. so if no-one wants a 442 because it has a 350 then what value is the 442 part ?

oldcutlass

Looks to be a decent car overall. I think the reason it looks odd is it has no stripes. Although not factory,t says it has a switch pitch 400 which is kinda cool. For $15k or negotiated a bit less, it would make a nice play toy.

joe_padavano

So the car has been apart, rebuilt, repainted, and who knows what's been done to it. I'll bet the O.A.I. hood isn't original. If it really is a U-code car with a numbers-matching block, it's worth something. The rest can be fixed.

vsupreme

Manual disc/drums? Wasn't that W-30 4 speeds only? I know my V code Supreme came with manual drums on all 4 wheels. Power disc/drum was an option. Battery in the trunk is strange. Does it have the additional fender braces for a big block car? Is that the correct large snorkel air cleaner?

61reoldsman

Engine looks pretty dirty for only having 400 miles on it ,unless all those miles were on dirt back roads ?

BackInTheGame

It looks to me like the whole front clip is a different shade of blue than the rest of the car. It really jumps out on the right/front and right side pictures. The rear of the hood sits a little high, also, IMHO.

oldcutlass

Imho, its not priced as a 100 point resto, its priced as a DD. $15k is a fair asking price for the car.

Diego

The requirement for one car with a specific engine/tranny combo doesn't preclude others from being equipped with the same brake system.

Allan R

Part right and part wrong. In 1972 the 442 could be ordered with any of the engines available in the power team lineup. The VIN in 72 can be any of the associated letter groups for engines. The only one that would stand out is X which is the L77 W30 engine. If this is in fact a U code car I think the ask is pretty reasonable.

U code 442's in 1972 are scarce. Most of the W29's were 350 equipped. U code engines it's perfectly normal for the car to have AC, which requires N47 power steering. I'm surprised it doesn't have power brakes though. As mentioned by Oldsmaniac, it would be nice to know what engine letter code is in the VIN

This ^^^

vsupreme

Manual disc/drum brakes were only available on W-30 4 speed cars. Otherwise you got manual drums or power disc/drums on big block cars. Power drums were not an option.

U in the VIN indicates a 455/Auto, nothing else. Probably a 442, but impossible to prove without a build sheet. Price does seem decent for what the car is though.

Allan R

Really? W30 cars with the 328° cam and AT didn't have power front disc brakes either from the factory. Ever heard of J50 RPO? Power Ease drum brakes. Available on all 72 A body models. The W30's with M40 could get JL2 PDB, which was the other power brake option that year but the cam was downgraded to make that happen. From the factory, without upgrades, manual drum front and rear was the standard offering (except for Cutlass Cruiser and Vista Cruiser which came standard with the JL2 PDB) on all Cutlass coupes and sedans though if that's what you're trying to say. Check the 72 SPECS booklet. Your second statement that big block cars were 'automatically delegated' recipients of manual or PDB is misleading and wrong - they were available as options to all Cutlass coupes and sedans except those equipped with the L77 engine and M20 Transmission.

Exactly right. Same as V in the VIN indicates a 455/MT, nothing else.

No, not true. A Fisher Broadcast card will also authenticate the car. So will GM Heritage IF the car was destined originally for the Canadian Market and/or originally sold in Canada.

vsupreme

J50 power drum brakes not available on L75 or L77 equipped cars, just as I stated. So yes, other than W-30 cars, big block cars got manual drums or PDB, as I stated. Never mentioned small block cars.

I was only thinking of US cars and meant to say Broadcast/Build sheet so my bad.

Allan R

Sorry, but both J50 PB and JL2 PDL WERE available on L75 cars. Check the SPECS for 72.

vsupreme

Well on my option/price guide is clearly states under J50, N/A with L75 or L77. And under L75 it clearly states N/A with J50. So who are you gonna believe?

Joffroi

I tried shooting the seller a message to ask questions. Never heard back though.

joe_padavano

The SPECS guide also says J50 N.A. with L75:

vsupreme

Thanks Joe, that is what I was referencing.

Curious as to why the W-30 package cost less with PDB than without? Must have been some option reshuffling?

Allan R

Well well well, isn't that interesting? I also happen to have the 72 SPECS booklet and it appears to be contradictory to your booklet, so I looked at the publication date. Mine is effective September 1971, and the one Joe posted from The Old Car Manuals Project is dated January 1972. So in my opinion this is a bit of a standoff. I suggest that Olds likely DID produce some of the 72 models with 455 in 1971 with J50 based on this information. Can you see why I disagreed?



BTW, interesting to note the price drop in 1972 at the top of the page.

joe_padavano

I understand your reasoning, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Keep in mind that the 1972 model year was a scramble to doll up the 71 models as 72s when the colonnade cars were delayed. There were mistakes or changes to many of the early-release documents as that whole process made it to production.

In this particular case, the early SPECS manual doesn't prove that any L75 cars were built with J50; it only proves that the combination was not precluded by that document. I suspect there was other internal documentation that eliminated the J50 option on L75 cars, and that was codified in the January update of the SPECS manual.

We just saw a similar issue in the thread on the 74 H/O, were the early documentation showed that the dual gate was included in the Hurst package on all cars built, but later documents clarified that the dual gate was only installed on the 455 cars. Despite that early documentation, no 350 cars were built with the dual gate for 1974. I suspect the same thing happened here with J50 and L75 cars.

Oldsmaniac

From an order sheet in 72...

Olds442redberet

I picked up a nicely done clone over two years ago. It was built back in the late seventies or early eighties by an Olds fanatic. It was hard to tell without looking at the VIN.

I have also picked up Frankenstein cars that looked good but after tearing into them it was easy to notice the replaced frame, mix match fenders, etc.

So it really pays to look the car over in person and to see the body language of the seller as he answers questions about car.

vsupreme

Interesting. What do the specs for 70/71 say? I only have 442 info where they were not shown as being available. Oh well, no harm, no foul IMHO.
Good thing there is no dispute about the V in my Supreme's VIN number!

Allan R

I'm well aware of the 72 cosmetology issues and the delay of the colonnade series. Mistakes? Sure - they exist even in the CSM where one paragraph will contradict the next in some cases. Since I have no way to prove or disprove, and you're in the same boat BTW, I still submit that the possibility exists that some L75 cars were built with J50. See below.

Don't forget that in 70 and 71 the 442 was it's own model and came standard with the 455 engine. It also came with standard drum brakes unless upgraded to JL2. There was no other option in 70/71. The W30's were designated manual disc front brakes, unless the option for JL2 was ordered (M40 required). All other models of (f85, Cutlass, Cutlass S and Cutlass Supreme) show the options for 455's and J50 or J52 in the SPECS booklet. (Although its a SBO, the W31 in 1970 could not have J50). I submit that if they could do that in 70 and 71 they could also do it in 72. The unfortunate part about the power team booklet is it doesn't specify what limitations the options packages would be limited to in any of the model years. Just specifies engine displacement, configuration, HP,torque and gear ratios.

No, there's absolutely no dispute about your V code car. Wish I had one.

Allan R

I thought I recognized that order form. The unfortunate part that doesn't really help us resolve the issue is this order form is dated 3/23/72 - which is in compliance with the January 1972 SPECS booklet. What would be really more helpful is an order form from July-Dec of 1971.

Here's the full dealer order form from your post.

EDIT: I just looked at the comparison prices from 71 and 72. The ones being used on this worksheet are definitely from the January 1972 edition of the SPECS. That leads me to believe the worksheet may also be a later edition with different option information listed.

Joffroi

I was able to get a hold of the owner. Nice guy, older gentlemen, has had the car almost 20 years. Bought it in pieces and did put it together. Doesn't really do much driving with it (seems to be more of a pontiac guy) which is why he is looking to sell it. Year One hood. Car didn't come original with it. Doesn't have the build sheet but hasn't dropped the tank to see if its there or not. Says it came with sway bars, definitely is a U code and engine is definitely original and so is the OAI cleaner (but not to the car). Rear-end he believe was from a pontiac. He doesn't like the look of the side stripes typically found on cars with the OAI hoods which is why he kept everything blue. He said its never been in wrecks, the discoloration between the front and the rear is because he just hasn't wet sanded it all since its been repaint. Battery was moved to the back to shift more weight back there.

Overall, seems like a decent to good condition driver car. Without that build sheet, probably no way of knowing what it really came with originally since it has been worked on so much. Its not horrible far away from me, but in the rare case my schedule allows it, I'd like to see it in person.