jerrybetty5

Can anyone tell me about the W34 engine? I just purchased a 1969 1969 442 that has been nicely restored. It also had the original engine replaced with the 455 W34 from a Tornado. Also, does anyone know where a repair manual for the 1969 can be found. I've looked on-line at the usual places with no luck.

firefrost gold

inline , fusick , superformance , sell them

Octania

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...&_sacat=0#save

many others also

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...anual&_sacat=0

rocketraider

Basically same engine you'd have found in a 1969 Hurst/Olds, with a Toronado low-profile intake and big-valve C heads instead of D's. A formidable engine- it could easily push a 4800-lb Toronado past 130 mph.

droldsmorland

"For 68 it was a 400 hp High-lift-cam (#400165) 455 with OAI. Might use distributor 1111982."
"For 69 it was a 400 hp High-lift-cam (#400165) 455. Might use distributor 1111982."
"For 70 it was a 400 hp High-lift-cam (#400165) 455. F block with E heads." quoted from 442.com.
Go there for more info on W34s.

So basically you got a 400 hp 455. In 68 it was an OAI engine, one of 111 total made in 68.

Tough to prove its a W34 without being able to link it to the actual car it was removed from. The car will have unique items that proved the pedigree. Said car would have tel-tale signs to verify W34 status, one of them being proper documentation with matching vin.

Its a stout 455 with off the shelf items slipped into a Toro. Very similar to the 69 HO and 70-71 455s found in all 442s.

joe_padavano

Don't put a lot of faith in the factory HP numbers. If the W-34 Toro motor really made more HP than the W-30 (with a restrictive intake, milder cam, restrictive exhaust manifolds, and run of the mill heads), why did Olds spend the money developing the W-30 instead of simply dropping the Toro motor into the 442?

rocketraider

There was that horsepower to weight ratio thing GM had back then...something like 10 lbs per HP, wasn't it?

I think the W34 was probably rated closer to its actual flywheel HP whereas the W30 was undoubtedly underrated to get around that HP/lb ratio and insurance companies.

joe_padavano

Exactly right, Glenn. It's no coincidence that the 3700 lb W-30 was rated at 370 HP.

Automotive author Roger Huntington wrote an article about this back in the day and actually put many musclecar engines on a dyno. The 1970 W-30 put out 440 HP at the flywheel in that test.

rocketraider

I imagine a Stage 1 Buick or RAIV Pontiac would have posted similar "actual" numbers as the W30.

Chevrolet's LS6 was probably the only one of the musclecar engines that its advertised HP was anywhere close to its actual output. Chevy could get away with that where the others couldn't. Mopar doesn't count; they had ***** big as a 5-gallon bucket anyway and didn't care about any silly HP/lb restrictions.

joe_padavano

Funny you should mention that. Here's the complete list from the article. The upper part are engines that exceeded the advertised HP. The lower part is engines that matched the advertised HP. As you correctly surmise, the LS6 was spot-on at 450 HP. Buford Stage 1 was 420, the Pontiac Ram Air 400 (don't know which flavor, however) was 410. Other interesting tidbits are that neither the Boss 302 nor the Z/28 302 put out much more than the advertised HP (310 vs 290) and the Ford 428 really did put out much more HP than the 390, despite identical factory ratings. In all cases, it appears that the published HP numbers were simply taken at an RPM below where peak HP was developed.

Octania

you can always fiddle with timing and intake air temp and coolant temp to produce lower power numbers, then publish that as the spec, then later oh gosh look if we tweak the timing we get a bit more power.

Then there's the with or w/o accessories in place, manifolds vs. headers, reading at flywheel or after trans or at the ground, etc.

droldsmorland

Nice....Just look at those beautiful numbers back in the day before insurance companies lawyered up. ***** out-hammer down, shhhhh dont tell anyone....! The good ole' days! Buford wins! 510lb/ft of ground tearin torque! Several friends had/have 70,71,72 Buicks. They all out run most, especially the Stage versions.

BangScreech4-4-2

The Pontiac Huntington used, at least according to the factory rating, would have been a Ram Air III. Thanks for a very interesting post, Joe.

Diego

Wasn't the 10 lbs/hp rule tossed by 1970, especially considering the 400cid limit was also tossed out?

BangScreech4-4-2

Nope. In addition to GM's slavish observance of the power-to-weight ratio limits, by 1970 the other manufacturers seemed to fall in line, pulling back some of their more outlandish figures from the '60s. Two exceptions were Mopar (who doggedly went on rating the Hemi at 425 hp, even thought the switch to hydraulic lifters must have cost it a few revs) and Chevy (as noted, the LS-6 was inexplicably rated at 450 hp. My guess is that it was DeLorean's first year at the helm of Chevrolet and this was an ego play.)

Diego

If the L72 was rated at 425 horses, it only makes sense for the LS6 to reflect a higher horsepower rating.

BangScreech4-4-2

Yes, but it was all about what cars they were installed in.

Diego

I am not understanding - the L72 was rated at 425 horsepower for the big Chevys, Camaro, Chevelle, and Corvette (although I've read 450 in early 1966 versions till they decided to lower the rating).

BangScreech4-4-2

Excepting COPOs, L-72s were unavailable in anything besides a Corvette or a full-size Chevy. We tend to forget this because you hear so much about them forty-six years after the fact, but Joe Public couldn't get his hands on a COPO car very easily. That's why they're rare.


The first iteration of the L-72 in 1966 was indeed factory-rated at 450 hp for the first part of the production run. I believe this was only in Corvettes. Regardless, the engine was identical to the later one that was rated at 425 hp.

Diego

The fact that the Camaros and Chevelles were COPO is irrelevant - Chevrolet could have adjusted the hp rating.

However, I do take issue that Joe Blow "couldn't get his hands on a COPO car very easily" as, after the 1966 Chevy and Corvette, the COPO Camaro is the third most popular L72 - the 1968-69 Chevys are rarer.

BangScreech4-4-2

If you had sauntered into your local Chevy dealer's and asked him to order you up a L-72 COPO Camaro, you would have been rewarded with nothing but a blank stare. Regular folks didn't have access to these cars and the production numbers reflect that fact.

Diego

That's interesting, considering that Chevrolet built more COPOs than W-31, and almost as many as W-30s.

firefrost gold

was thinking the same thing Diego. Just as it is today we go in to look at the Gt500 super snake but come home with the gt or same with dodge or Chevrolets . Shure as a play car they would be fun just as a w-31 would have been back in the day but to run year around 7 days a week , with long ride's to work would be rough .

joe_padavano

No, the 400 cu in limit was tossed, but the 10 lbs/hp in the A-body cars remained.

joe_padavano

As opposed to today? 707 HP Hellcat, 650-ish HP in the CTS-V, etc, etc. And those are NET horsepower numbers, for engines that meet both stringent EPA specs and CAFE requirements.

droldsmorland

Not too loud Joe, shhhhh. Its only a matter of time before history repeats itself....especially with the legal sue happy mentality of today(but hopefully not).
You lived through the late 70s-80s. It took Detroit 30+ years to overcome the man.
For sure HP/TQ numbers today with the modern handling and drive-train management are quite impressive. Ive driven the new Hemi Challenger(stick shifted) and the new Vette (auto). Impressed is a gross understatement with both!
Must be all the safety enhancements of today's vehicles that are keeping things at bay for now.
The HellCat is most impressive! Dealer wont let me take that one out (yet).

BangScreech4-4-2

Way to use specious logic to not prove a point. Just because Olds didn't sell very many W-31s doesn't mean it was easy to order a COPO car from Chevrolet.

BangScreech4-4-2

Which led to even more fudging of numbers.

joe_padavano

As I pointed out earlier - 370 HP from a W-30 motor in a 3700 lb car.

What other automotive forum gives you stuff like this, people?

BangScreech4-4-2

Gold, Joe. Pure gold, I tell ya.

rocketraider

I'm with 69ragtop on this. There were only a few Chevy dealers who had the pull to get a Central Office Production Order made and they were generally ones who had proven themselves to be a high-sales-volume performance oriented dealer- one who would be able to sell such a non-standard car should the original buyer back out of the deal.

The Chevy dealer in South Boston VA ordered an aluminum-engine Camaro thru COPO and then, on delivery, the guy backed out because of the cost. After that deal fell thru the dealer kept it on its MSO for many years, letting the grandson take it to the local dragstrips and occasional street race.

Had EJ Wyatt not had the track record they did of selling several Corvettes a year along with plenty of hardcore SS cars, doubtful they'd have ever gotten that COPO car.

Diego

There's nothing specious about my logic - you said, "Regular folks didn't have access to these cars and the production numbers reflect that fact." I merely responded with the facts that anyone could enter a Chevy dealership and leave with a 427 Camaro, and that 427 Camaro production was higher than you suggest. Here's some mighty cars from 1969 that are rarer than COPO Camaros:

- Ram Air IV GTO
- Hemi Road Runner
- Boss 429 Mustang
- L89 Camaro
- Hemi Charger R/T

BangScreech4-4-2

I always end up in these circular arguments with you. You're like a pit bull, except pit bulls are right sometimes. But I love ya anyway.


Those cars are rare because people didn't order very many of them. COPOs are rare because people COULDN'T order very many of them. You know, because of the whole COPO thing ...


PS -- see rocketraider's post above for a quick dose of sanity.

Diego

It's all good.

However, you're still calling the COPO Camaros "rare" when they aren't as rare as you have suggested. Regardless whether a guy on the street could order one or not, they're quite numerous considering its subversive history and ultra hi-po capabilities - not many solid 13-second cars were sold in those numbers.

BangScreech4-4-2

We can certainly agree on that much. Cars that could run 13.16 @ 110 were few and far between no matter what you had to do to get one.

rocketraider

COPO performance Chevrolets were uncommon mainly because they cost so much and not everyone could afford one (see comment about buyers backing out of the deal when they saw the price).

Little known fact- the COPO program was also used for fleet buyers- cop cars, taxicabs and the like. That's why you should specify performance car when talking Chevrolet COPO cars.

Diego

When the talk is about COPO Camaros, I think it's understood that we're talking about 427 cars and not cars for the phone company.

BTW, a L72 427 Camaro cost less than a SS 396 L78 car. The ZL1 is the one that "not everyone could afford," but that's a whole different animal.

gglow

gglow

So what would a stock '70 442 actual rating be?

BangScreech4-4-2

My guess is that the factory 365 hp number was about right.