rlafash

Was the OW transmission exclusive to the 1970 W-30 option? If a 442 has a transmission that displays the OW tag and contains the vehicles VIN, does that confirm it being a true W-30 442?

Octania

That sounds accurate to me.

OW == W30 by definition
VIN stamp == original Trans

Now, OW tags are readily available... so... look closelier.

BlackGold

Just to be clear, the VIN derivative is stamped on the transmission case, not the tag.

If you ever drop the transmission and can clean it gently, you should find a large OW stenciled in paint on the bell housing. You can find photos elsewhere on this site. That should help determine if someone just riveted a new tag on it.

And just to be nit-picky regarding your original question, the OW TH-400 was in fact used on one other car besides the W-30: some Buick GSs used the OW trans. But Buick used a different tag, so that's easy to spot.

Stefano

I have see plenty of fake tags and restamped OW transmissions, so buyer beware.

Octania

rlafash wrirtes:

"Thank you for your response to my question about the 442 W30 identification. Might I impose a few more on you? There are other supporting factors about the car, however, there is no provenance, i.e., paper work. The intake is numbers matching as is the carburetor and distributor. The air cleaner assembly and hood appear to be original. The rear causes me some concern. Since the car is an automatic with AC, should it have a SF rear? This car has a TM rear. Could a W30 with automatic and AC have been built with a TM coded rear? "

I defer this subtle detail to those with more expertise.

I would go for casting dates of easy to analyze components such as distributor, carb, intake, water pump, differential...

And closely examine that trans tag and VIN derivative stamp, share pix with others.

joe_padavano

However, a "numbers matching" trans can "become" an OW trans with one of these available blank tags.

Even easier to spot is the fact that a Buick VIN derivative stamp will start with a "4" as opposed to a "3" for an Oldsmobile.

joe_padavano

Just so we're clear, there are no numbers that "match" on the intake, carb, or distributor. There are identification numbers that may be correct for a W-30, but these parts are all bolt-ons that are easily swapped. The only numbers that actually match the VIN are the VIN derivative stamps on the block, trans case, and frame.

Despite the frequent incorrect usage of the term, "numbers matching" literally means exactly that - the VIN derivative stamps MATCH the VIN of the car. Parts without a VIN derivative stamp (like the intake, carb, and distributor) cannot possibly be "numbers matching". They can be correct for the application, and they can even have a date code in the correct range for a particular car, but they are not numbers matching parts.

(Even more ludicrous are the frequent ads I see for a "numbers matching" engine that isn't installed in a car... )

BangScreech4-4-2

Makes you want to call them up and ask, "What, exactly, do the numbers match?"

BlackGold

I don't consider the VIN derivative stamp easier to see than the tag. But it's certainly harder to change and fake, if that's what you're getting at.

joe_padavano

Yeah, that would have been a better way to say it.

Octania

Hey, Joe, you got a match?

Wait, I mean a "light" - you got a light?

reminds me of Rustler's Rhapsody

rlafash

My thanks to all who have provided answers/information regarding W30 identification. In order to clarify the car carries VIN 344670M179862. The engine a transmission carry derivatives of that number. The car is being represented as a Lansing, MI 442. It has many features representing a W30, however, no provanance or supporting documentation. These include: OW transmission tag;red inner fenders; W & Z exhaust manifolds; block casting #396071-F; intake OLDSMOBILE #406115; carburetor #7040256; distributor #1111979. Most, if not all of these have been or are being reproduced. The OAI hood and air cleaner both "appear" to be originals, again however, both have also been reproduced. I'm asking if the reproductions of the inner fenders, OW tag and manifolds can be readily identified as such. My main issue is with the identification of the rear. The car is an automatic with AC. The rear carries a TM code. This appears to be incompatible. Were all W30 with automatic and AC produced with a SF rear?

halfmoontrail

The inner fenders have been reproduced more than once. There is one version where the ~1" squares on driver's side for mounting the cruise controls have soft edges, whereas the originals have sharp edges and a very flat top (except indentation for bolt hole?).
Steve

Diego

rlafash, is the car local to you?

I used to live in DE so it's possible I knew about the car at one point. I bought mine out of Christiana.

BlackGold

According to all factory documentation, 1970 W-30s with A/C MUST have the 3.23 posi (SF) rear. However, I have seen a couple people post at this website claiming that they own or owned one with a higher ratio, believed to be original. I'll let you search for the thread and make up your own mind.

rlafash

Thanks Brian, the rear causes me the most concern and I will search the site for information later today. My search skills leave much to be desired. Were the same letter codes, TM and SF used on the base 1970 442, or were these codes exclusive to W30 cars?

BlackGold

The TM rear was specific to the W-30 and W-31 cars and used heavier-duty components.

The SF rear was available as an option (but not standard) on almost every A-body engine and transmission combination, with the biggest exception being those with M21 (close ratio 4-speed). Note that the SF has posi-traction, so it is not actually all that common on non-performance models (most people would opt for the non-posi SE).

There is some conjecture that SF rears destined for W-cars received heavier-duty components like the TM and TO rears did. I don't have any proof of that, and I don't know how the factory would control the build and installation of such different rears without a paper trail.

rlafash

Brian and others, thank you again for your responses and information. I did find one post indicating "documented" ownership of a 1970 W30 with automatic and AC equipped with a TM rear. I would imagine that anything is possible, however, I remain suspicious of the originality of a TM rear in the car I'm analyzing. Without a paper trail, anything could have happened resulting in the car having a TM rear, i.e., installation at the factory, replacement during its history, restoration, etc., etc. As I said earlier, the car is being identified as a "could be W30". The VIN and cowl tag clearly identify the car as a 442. That's all is being claimed.

BlackGold

With a Lansing VIN sequence number of 179862, that car's body was built by Fisher on October 27 or 28, 1969. That's early enough (close enough to the start of the model year production) that the date code on the rear end should fall into a fairly narrow range. If it isn't a September or October date code (preferably one just a couple days or weeks prior), it was probably not installed at the factory. If it does fall into the window, it doesn't prove it was factory-installed, but it makes it possible or even likely.

rlafash

Again, my thanks for the continuing responses to my questions. The build dates correspond to the 10E on the cowl tag. The other numbers also appear to correctly reflect the car. ST 7034467LAN279729 BDY TR 970 - B PNT The car is a black over Rally Red Convertible with a black interior. I.ve decided to go ahead with the purchase, and, once delivered will take note of the date codes, especially the one on the rear. I will advise once I've confirmed the numbers.

rlafash

purchased, found to not be as advertised, requested and received complete reimbursement, very fortunate, could have gone very badly

Diego

When the dust settles, I'd be interested in hearing more about what you discovered.

I recall a W-30 rag in NJ on eBay that sounds similar - same car?

BangScreech4-4-2

Me too. I'd be very interested to hear what happened whenever rlafash feels like talking about it.

rlafash

Car was advertised as a "numbers matching 442, possibly a W30." There was a twenty minute video appraisal by a "442 expert" claiming the car was a strong Haggerty #2. When received it was dirty, missing the spare and jack, AC not working. Went down from there, block was an Fa, last three of VIN crudely hand stamped on blank engine pad, OW tag was repro, rear wrong. Dealership was reputable with an excellent BBB history. Sold high end exotics; had just begun selling "selective classics" through an "agent". Refunded all expenses with no argument. Not a New Jersey Car. I am a long time collector currently owning a 62 Starfire HT, 66 Skylark GS convertible, 69 Z28, 2002 Firehawk and 2014 C7. Had all but the C7 inspected by an acquaintance who knew cars. C7 is Corvette is #12 for me so I did the due diligence on that one myself. Lesson learned is to never again make a purchase without a reliable inspection. Lucky on this one. Won't happen again.

orange442

There are a lot more 1970 "W-30 's" out there than were ever produced in Lansing. Without good paperwork and verified history I would always be skeptical. Unless I could go over the car myself to verify everything in person, I would not buy it. These cars have too high a value, and usually a high price tag, not to do your do diligence on verifying their authenticity.

rlafash

Agreed, however, I wasn't buying, or paying for a W30. I was buying a 442. The price was right for a legitimate 442. The problem was that the car was not a legit 442. Still, I agree that nothing substitutes for an in person inspection. That becomes difficult, costly and sometimes impractical based upon distance. As I said, it was the first and last time I'd do so without having the car inspected by someone I trust.

orange442

In your post above you said :

This VIN would make it a 70 442. So this was not the real VIN on the car or had it been re bodied?

joe_padavano

Anytime an ad says "possibly a W-30", you can be sure that it is a clone. On the other hand, the fact that the dealership completely refunded all expenses is a very pleasant surprise. Frankly, that is a resounding endorsement for that dealership.

rlafash

Will try to answer the last two responses in the order presented. While the VIN was correct for a 1970 442, the engine casting as well as the crudely hand stamped last three numbers stamped on the engine pad revealed a non original engine; the reproduction trans tag and incorrect rear also confirmed non original components. I was purchasing an original, numbers matching 442. This car did not match its description.


As for the dealers response, I most certainly agree that they were very professional and acknowledged the "errors" made by their agent.

joe_padavano

This has been an example of what has unfortunately become all too common in the hobby. You will routinely see ads that say "appears to be N.O.S." or "appears to be a W-30", which is just code for "I know it's not, but maybe some sucker will bite". The "numbers matching" statement is technically true, if misleading. The restamped numbers do match. They just aren't original.

Glad everything was resolved to your satisfaction.

BlackGold

rlafash, even though you didn't find out until after delivery, it's great that you have educated yourself on the details and were able to recognize the problems. There's too many people out there buying blind and getting ripped off -- and then turning around and doing it to the next buyer simply because they don't know any better. Better luck on your next purchase.