italian ice

This guy tells an interesting story. Anyone know if there is any truth to it?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/201314165981...65981&viewitem=


"OLDSMOBILE BUILT WHAT WAS BELIEVED TO BE 22 "FIELD TEST" CARS PRIOR TO THE PUBLIC PRODUCTION . THIS CAR WAS NEVER SOLD THROUGH AN OLDSMOBILE DEALER , IT WAS BUILT AND TESTED BY OLDSMOBILE AND THEN SOMEONE IN THE PROGRAM TOOK IT HOME"

66luvr

I'll be watching this auction. If someone buys that maybe they would also buy the Golden Gate bridge from me. :-)

Diego

I'm having deja vu with this '64 - anyone else?

oldsmobiledave

Seller fabricated story to cover the fact that he paid 442 money for a Cutlass.

Hairy Olds

"IT CAN NEVER BE TOTALLY DOCUMENTED AS THE VERY FIRST 442 EVER BUILT , OLDSMOBILE DESTROYED ALL RECORDS OF THE EARLY CARS IN 1968 TO MAKE ROOM FOR "MORE RECORDS"

First time I've heard that must be true.

BangScreech4-4-2

Current bid of $5665 should tell us all we need to know about the veracity of the seller's claim. Fish ain't bitin'.

Octania

WHY IS IT THE CRAZIEST SOB'S ON THE INTRERNET ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS HAVE TO TYPE EVERYTHING IN ALL CAPS?

It's the first 442 ever made, you just can't prove it.
uh huh

I got a 1949 J-2 with three carbs... first one ever thought of, just can't prove it.

BackInTheGame

Isn't that a 67-era 442 badge on the deck lid, or did that style of badge come out earlier than 67?

67442nut

After reading his description, I didn't take it that he was saying this was the first 4-4-2.
I took him to say it was possible leaving it to the reader to jump to that conclusion.

Me, too, just don't remember where. Probably ebay.

That basic multi-color 4-4-2 emblem was used from the first '64 4-4-2 through the end of '67.
Exact profile and dimensions varied from year to year depending on the profile of the panel it was mounted on.

BackInTheGame

Thanks for the info - I guess I never noticed them before, being so focused on the '68s as I am.

joe_padavano

This car comes up for sale about every eight months, and spawns a couple of threads every time. No documentation to prove the claims.

BlueCalais79

That's one nice Cutlass.

BangScreech4-4-2

But not 45 grand's worth.

joe_padavano

Well, we discussed this car HERE a year ago, HERE six months ago, and HERE three days ago.

aliensatemybuick

Looks like a nice enough car, though I have no opinion to offer as to its authenticity.

Gotta say though, you guys all seem to like these "cookie-cutter" a-body cars that other than special paint jobs, decals, emblems, etc can be done up in only limited ways which are usually hard-to-impossible to verify as factory originals. Not sure I saw any under hood shots in the auction, but even if it had the right air cleaner it wouldn't prove anything.

And even if it came with a protecto plate, I say so what? Another boring Cutlass.

oldcutlass

One of these days he might find someone to dump it on. At least he's consistent.

Joffroi

Hilarious... and true.

Diego

Hardly - you make a claim on a car's pedigree, you back it up or STFU. "Caveat emptor" doesn't suggest that integrity has to be lacking in a transaction.

lemoldsnut

Selling an original car is one thing. When there is documentation to show what it is or at least some kind of proof. We all have seen w-30 cars that are in the end a 442 with some W-30 stuff and then there is the ones that are real that some one bought to drive and enjoy and did not save any documentation and drove it like it was designed to run and killed the engine and on and on and after it changed hands a few times there is no proof of what it is. I had one of those and was fortunate enough to find the original owner who had the original documents in a file. That is very rare. But, if it doesn't make sense and is shady then it is shady.
I have a 67 5vy 442 for sale with original running gear and paint and it is hard to sell these cars. They are getting so hard to find unaltered.

It is a shame when someone takes advantage of those not being careful.

Joe P has a huge wealth of knowledge as well as many others on this site. They should be asked their opinions and put value to that when making these claims and purchases.

Thanks to all of you that share your knowledge.

Larry

BlackGold

When someone makes some very specific claims like that which are not generally known, I'd like to keep an open mind. Who knows, maybe he's done actual research and can back it all up. We'll never learn anything new if we smack down everyone who says something new.


But if he truly has new knowledge, then he owes it to fellow Olds fanatics to write up his research and publish it, whether in JWO or on a message board such as this. He can then cite from where he got his information. It is only when things are published that they can be peer reviewed and commented on. Readers can check facts and then either canonize or vilify the author.

Diego

Open minds are great.

And, all too often (and exacerbated by Internet culture), people pile on with their "prevailing wisdom" facts without making an attempt to decipher the truth - mob mentality, in other words.

But I don't think this is the case with this vehicle. And I don't think he owes the Oldsmobile hobby anything - it's just a transaction involving a pedigreed vehicle and the flow of money. He may get away with it regardless of price, and then we'll have another guy perpetuating the story.

lunaboy

442 or not the car is not original per the cowl tag in that it has a console with the G missing on the tag. Other items of interest noted... the car has power steering and power brakes, no big valve late year # 2 heads either. So what makes it a 442 then; the addition of boxed arms and the drilled holes for the emblems i guess.

Koda

I am not a 64 expert, but I submit that, if one is making extraordinary claims, then one must have extraordinary proof. I don't think a trial vehicle could ever be sold legally, and I don't think the muscle car skunk works were up and running for Olds yet. Very few trial vehicles lived, and I don't think any got sold. The 83 Vette is the only one I know of that is a legitimate trial vehicle and it was stolen and then gifted back; it was never a legal vehicle.

oldsmobiledave

Ok ok who else emailed him And asked for proof?

Looks like my request for proof really set him off.

Go read his last post.

Diego

He's gotta understand that for his story to carry weight, he needs documentation. There is no need for him to be frustrated by buyers - if anything, buyers should be frustrated with him.

oldcutlass

Dammit Dave...


On Mar-27-15 at 11:11:28 PDT, seller added the following information:



MARCH 27 , 2015

THIS IS AN OPEN RESPONSE TO ALL OF THE SELF-PROCLAIMED 442 EXPERTS TRYING TO DISCREDIT THIS CAR . THE 442 WAS NOT "MAGICALLY CREATED" IN MARCH OF 1964 . THERE WERE TEST CARS , OR PROTO-TYPES IF YOU PREFER , FOR DESIGN AND HANDLING OF THE "NEW" CAR OLDSMOBILE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF BUILDING . A GENTLEMAN WHO WORKED AT OLDSMOBILE IN 1963 INFORMED ME , TO THE BEST OF HIS RECOLLECTION , 22 "FIELD TEST" CARS WERE MADE PRIOR TO THE "PUBLIC" PRODUCTION IN MARCH OF 1964 . HE HIMSELF HAD BOUGHT ONE OF THESE TEST CARS AND HAD OWNED IT UNTIL 2002 . IT WAS EXACTLY LIKE THIS PARTICULAR MODEL . THIS CAR WILL NOT CONFORM TO THE "NORM" FOR WHAT WAS STANDARD FOR THE PRODUCTION CARS , IT WAS BUILT MONTHS BEFORE , THERE WERE CHANGES MADE BEFORE PUBLIC PRODUCTION "COULD" BEGIN .

I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME , THIS CAR IS HOW OLDSMOBILE MADE IT . IT IS NOT RESTORED , MODIFIED NOR "CREATED" IN SOMEONE'S GARAGE . IT HAS THE ORIGINAL DATE CODED CORRECT 310 HORSEPOWER 330 ENGINE WITH ALL MATCHING DATE CODED ACCESSORIES ( HEADS,INTAKE & EXHAUST MANIFOLDS , BLOCK , CARB ETC. ) . SO IF SOMEONE COULD EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS CAR GOT THIS DRIVETRAIN , WHICH IS ALL ORIGINAL , BUT ONLY AVAILABLE WITH THE 442 OPTION , HOW THIS CAR IS NOT AN ORIGINAL 442 ??

I AM ENDING THIS AUCTION EARLY , I AM TIRED OF ANSWERING NUISANCE EMAILS CHALLENGING THE INTEGRITY OF THIS CAR . THIS CAR HAS NOW BEEN EXPOSED TO THE INTERNET WORLD BUT WITHOUT HANDS-ON INSPECTIONS , IT SEEMS NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THIS CAR TRULY IS . ANYONE WHO CARES TO COME TO MISSOULA AND INSPECT THIS CAR IS TRULY WELCOME . MY NAME IS JOHN , MY NUMBER IS 406-549-1700 . MY WEBSITE IS www.autobrokercenter.com PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL ME IF YOU ARE TRULY INTERESTED IN PURCHASING THE CAR , NOT JUST BASHING IT . THE CAR DESERVES BETTER THAN THAT .

THIS IS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT TO HISTORY , ESPECIALLY THE 442'S HISTORY , AS THIS CAR IS .

joe_padavano

It's only a part of "442 history" if there is documentation to back up the claims. A claim that some unnamed Oldsmobile employee said something "to the best of his recollection" more than 50 years after the fact doesn't carry a lot of weight. Try a claim like that in a courtroom on the witness stand and see how the judge acts.

Hell, I have trouble remembering something from 50 MINUTES ago...

VI Cutty

A few years ago in the VW world, a pickup bodied Beetle was represented as being a rare, early post-war production car which had been used and maintained by the USAF until some time in the 1980 or 1990's. It was then claimed the car had been returned to the US as the private vehicle of a retiring airman.

Despite the complete lack of documentation to authenticate the claims, and the lack of production of that vehicle type, and the confirmation from a kit car company that they had built the car recently (around 2007ish), the owner persisted with the claims. The last I saw of it, it had been purchased (presumably for much more than its actual value) by a private "museum" and was on display with a description echoing the original seller's undocumented (and proven false) claim.

So now we have a recently created fraudulently presented "vintage" VW in a museum...and perhaps one day they'll pawn it off to an unsuspecting buyer some way out of line price.

There is generally good reason for people to question and challenge when a vehicle is represented to be something but no documentation is available. Open minds are great. PT Barnum loved them.

oldcutlass

Some people are firm believers that if you say it enough times...

BangScreech4-4-2

Remember -- it's not a lie if YOU believe it!

442Fred

I am going to make one comment here and it may or may not add credibility to his story. If this car came from Arizona then there may be a reason things do not match up, we had a GM proving grounds here back then and many cars from there ended up in private hands. I had a car delivered to Big 2 Oldsmobile that was sent to the proving grounds as stated on the build sheet. It was a 1970 442 built in Freemont. Modifications were done there during testing so anything is possible.

Just my 2 cents

joe_padavano

Claiming that something was possible and proving that a specific car was one of those are two very different things. The latter requires iron-clad documentation if there is a dollar premium associated with the story. Anyone who's been in the hobby for any length of time has heard many such unsubstantiated stories about one-of-none cars. They rarely prove to be true.

R-body_mopar

Okay.....I am NOT an expert on '64 442's (or any Olds, for that matter!), but my question is this:

WHY would Oldsmobile produce prototypes of the 442 in a 2 door version, when it was generally marketed for police car use as a 4 door version, as in the early ads for the car back then??

Anyone have any ideas or documentation on this?? Was this a way around the corporate office as a "police only" option, somewhat like the '68 H/O using a 455 engine beyond the corporate policy limit of 400 cid>???

joe_padavano

Because they wanted to sell cars to the younger crowd, who wouldn't buy a more-door if it were the only car available?

People who were not alive in the 1960s for some reason can't believe that 2dr body styles far outsold 4drs then. Olds obviously would want to build accurate prototypes of the cars they intended to sell, so that these cars could be durability tested before release to the public. This was and is standard practice in the development process. I guess I don't understand your confusion about this. Olds was going after the market that Pontiac created with the GTO, which was NOT a more-door. The police version wasn't "generally marketed", it was a fleet sales option that typically was not sold to the general public. The original 442 ads showing the police car version were the marketing department at work, not some nefarious plan.

You really have to get rid of the tinfoil hat...

italian ice

It’s too bad we don’t have a more complete account of how the 442 was developed. Considering the level of knowledge regarding the known history of other muscle car makes (first Corvette, Mustang, GTO), it seems that we Old’s guys would want to get the research done on the earliest development of the 442. Can anyone share such information with us? What about the “Auto History Preservation Society” folks? Or OCA? I’d like to know what’s out there on the subject.



It would be nice to know if the eBay guy's story has any substance. Regardless of how you feel about the authenticity of his particular car.


Bob D'

BangScreech4-4-2

Let's take a different tack. Everyone seems to agree that it's a pretty nice car, just probably not a 442. The seller, then, is going to have to sell it on that basis if in fact it's ever going to sell. So, assuming its just a nice #2 condition Cutlass hardtop with a 330/4V and factory 4-speed, what do you think it would be worth?

68442

Wow, 35 post . How many post on this site from members looking for help or info get no Responce.

Diego

68442, did you ever respond to these people looking for help?

italian ice

We'll soon find out what the car is worth. It is lot #F193.1 on tonight's Mecum Seattle docket. Maybe we'll get to see it on TV going thru. Current lot #140 going now.

oldcutlass

Curious to see how it does.
Here's the link:
https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/WA0...e-442/4-Speed/