Stefano

Here is a pic of a dealer shipping order Copy, similar to info found on a Window Sticker.

Ctls442

Troy has a separate restoration business from the rest of the Thorntons. Troy is in Quakertown PA, and the other Thorntons are in Telford, PA. It has been this way for a few years now. I spoke with Troy about the red '70 W-30 Convertible shortly after the Barrett-Jackson auction where it sold for $300,000 plus, and Troy had nothing to do with that car. The restoration was done by Jeff Thornton which is why the camera kept going to him as the bidding climbed. Troy sold a hardtop that weekend for approximately $85,000 or $90,000.

jstrits

I had heard this also. I was at the auction and saw the car. a very nice restoration. I watched the car on the block and was amazed at the price. As I saw the new owner standing with it along side jeff and I believe it to be his wife I heard this similar story. I had heard the documents were inside the glove box liner which was stuffed in the trunk along with many other parts. I can't vouch if it was a real car or not but the guy I talked with tried to buy it before it hit ebay. The guy that bought it in AZ is from my area in WI and goes to the local olds shows and the nats. He has top notch cars and most that I have seen have been done by well known restoration houses. I watch thornton reproductions on facebook and they chronicle their projects. The last one was the yellow 442 conv that was a total in-out color change but advertised as such. I had asked a comment about the w-car and they responded that the AZ deal fell through and it was back up in florida for sale. I didn't press on.

jstrits

At the moment I am uploading photos which I can't disturb but I will post a pic of my window sticker and dealer copy from my lansing built 71.

jstrits

71442docs010.jpgThese are two of a bunch of docs I have with my car. The window sticker would look a little more weathered as it was stuck to the window. And therfore the tear. My car's original owner and the 3 after (including me) are still alive so I know it's all good!!71442docs012.jpg

shatrab

Troy and Jeff Thornton are two separate businesses. Yes, they are brothers, but are not tied together with any of their work. Although both benefit from the "Thornton" name, you would see either of their restorations at big auctions. I drive past Telford myself and go to Quakertown to deal with Troy myself, as I have found he is a very decent and honest fellow that was highly recommended by a life long friend as somebody to go to if you need parts (or obviously a restoration if you have that kind of money). I currently have HD front and back springs I bought through him that I have yet to install! When I went there to order springs (meeting him for the first time), I also asked if he had a voltage regulator (my alternator turned out being the problem, not the regulator), he gave me one in a box and told me to try it to see if that was the problem (at that point, he had not known me or had secured any money for the spring order, he was trusting that I would come back some day and either pay for the regulator, or give it back). Yes, Troy is the reproduction end of the Thornton name, but he also does restoration of anything you would want (especially 442's as that is his passion)!

shatrab

Sorry I didn't see your Thornton explanation as I missed the last few pages of this topic (computer glitch?), or I wouldn't have just about explained the very same thing!

Jacoz70442

I just dealt wirh Lisa and Troy getting a new W25 hood. They do nice work and the parts are top-notch...especially this hood. I'm happy I got an original 442, but what floors me is 1. The amount of money people spend on purchasing these cars is insane 2. What good is a car thay sits in a garage and never driven? It's like a beautiful painting nobody ever sees! As a newer member to owning muscle cars I'm worried. The emphasis is so much on proving the lineage vs. the joy of driving. Maybe I'm off, but the old "a fool and his money will soon part" is what these high-end auctions breed. Eventually it will get to a point where the only way to document to inestment grade is if you had a video of you buying the car with video authenticated to prove correct. Bottom line: some idiot spent too much money on a car they'll never drive and they should have just invested in somethig else and driven a cheaper car to have a blast. A $300k 442, ridiculous!

leepear

Thank you for such an interesting discussion. I have stayed out of most of this discussion because I have been a keeper of a 1970 W-30 convertible list for more than 25 years. Just like my friend Paul is the keeper of the 1971 list. I just track cars and do not verify them. This red/orange car showed up on ebay as a rust bucket undocumented car. It was rough and was purchased by Thorton to be restored by Thorton and resold by Thorton. No customer involved. I don't know either Thorton. It is not my business to talk bad about people either. The paperwork was discovered by Thorton after he purchased the car. The original owner did not know the paperwork was in the car. I had never seen or heard of this car nor did any of my old timer oldsmobile friends. I printed the ebay auction sale price in the $40k area and added it to my collection of documentation on cars, real or fake. Those are the facts. There are forensic experts in documents. They can tell if documents are aged by tea and folded a million times. They know the type of paper that was used during a period of time, expertly can analyze fonts. You pay big bucks and they will certify documents. There are now real blank broadcast cards out there so if you have one of those to document your car it is now in question. Fortunately guys like Jason exist and can help too. He did a perfect reproduction window sticker for my car which I represented as a perfect reproduction. I went to great lengths to make sure it was a close to perfect as I could get. But it is a "reproduction".....I don't have a window sticker for my car. I do have many original window stickers for w-30s. Guess what....they are done different ways depending on who was typing it. As a side note some more w-30 cars have recently changed status on my list. This whole mess has made me very sad. Lee

Sampson

X2 for your bottom line comment

Stefano

Here is an example of just one of the blank Broadcast cards which were being sold on eBay 7-8 years ago.

Jacoz70442

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-Colton

72 w29 all green

Only 264 built, but it feels like I've seen at least that many advertised for sale, with supposed factory documentation, on the internet over the past 15-20 years.

Are any of these 3 cars currently on Ebay on your list?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...t_50562wt_1165

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...#ht_500wt_1021

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...t_52116wt_1094

leepear

Tommy's Azure Blue car is a very well known and documented car. Lee

scr8p

thanks for bringing it back up. i was just about over it. lol.

they cleaned it and put it on the trailer, that's about it.

chrismcgurk

i remember the ebay auction as well.

when i saw this ragtop was going to be at B-J with full docs,i just started laughing

i laughed even more when it got bid to 325k.

then when it came back and sold for 250k,i just laughed some more

these cars are simply money laundromats for tax evading rich guys & dope dealers,and phony museums hiding behind non profit status.

i cant believe the IRS just ignores this shady stuff

bear442

Leepear, do you still maintain a 70 w30 list?

leepear

yes I still try to keep it going even though I dont have my car anymore. Lee

bear442

so what info do you have, are they only w30"s
hardtops or convert.
I have a convert and a hardtop...
how many convert owners?

leepear

I track w-30 convertibles only, have for 35 years. Don't verify cars, just keep the list. Send me your name, car details vin and if your car is documented and how. Thanks Lee Pearl smartpearl1@hotmail.com

bear442

it a true w30 convert I have owned it since 1978, get the vin later, I am on the road. cant find build sheet. the fuel tank has not been dropped yet so I have one last chance. never was interested in documnetation until now, so that is why I am looking. otherwise the car has all matching numbers, everything.....
thanks Lee.

So what benifit is afforded to us owners, do we get a copy of the list? Have a safe and Happy 4TH...............

bear442

Lee
here is the VIN
344670M350247 original color bamboo with gold stripes

jstrits

There is no "buildsheet" in a lansing built car that I have ever heard of. It will somewhere have a "broadcast" sheet. It is smaller and have some option codes on it and more than likely show The W-30 designation in a box. That would be your proof if you have no other doc's. post some picures if you can, that color combo is seldom seen. Here is one place these can be hiding.71floorpanwithcard2.jpg

bear442

bear442

OMG, lets hope I didn't throw it away back in 1979 when I change the carpet, who would have knew about this ith document stuff, and the value of these cars back in the 70's. Im kepping my fingers crssoed. thanks.
I have chacked every code on very part on this car and they are all W-30. There is no doubt in my mind that it a true w30, but that isn't worth anything,,,,

thanks I'll drop the tank in the fall before I go back in really look again in the interior...

Dave Siltman

I was talking to Jeff the other day on a different matter, and of course this car entered the conversation. I'm not going to divulge what I was told was the "truth" behind the sale/no sale/sale of the car at Barrett-Jackson, but let's just say that things aren't always as they appear to be. I wasn't at either sale, and can only form an opinion on what I saw when I WAS there, and from Jeff told me. I attend car auctions four days a week and have for a LOOOOOOOOONG time, and after what Jeff told what REALLY happened it all makes sense. I don't want to defend or offend, nor condemn or condone anyone involved.

oldsmobiledave

Check under the back seat base for a broadcast card. I just found the broadcast card for my 1970 W-31 there.


IMG_20141104_164844_zps7080bd31.jpg


IMG_20141104_165807_zps2a441d96.jpg

allyolds68

You're kind of being a tease Dave. I understand you probably have a professional relationship with Jeff.........but why bother bringing this up unless you were going to tell the story

Dave Siltman

Just to let the world, or our group of Olds enthusiasts know that sometimes things can get twisted and appear jaded when the real facts might be buried or hidden. I'm not "teasing" as you put it, more like "enlightening".

Stefano

What is it that the "Olds community" is missing about this ordeal?

A car was represented with documentation which turned out to be fraudulent. The deal was backed up and the car was resold by the same auction house, sans the made up docs.

Rocketguy

And that is enlightening how?



.

MDchanic

I don't feel enlightened.

And facts being buried or hidden is a simple fact of life, not some epiphany.

- Eric

Dave Siltman

I'll say what I heard had more to do with bidder credentials than documentation. Not all bidders have the same credentials, privelages, and/or limits. Lots of smoke and mirrors in the auction business and in the end the house usually wins.

hurst68olds

So, there was no high bidder with an adequate line-of-credit and/or B-J bid the car up without a bidder for a repeat customer hoping someone would bid at the last second at the "magic" number. Sounds like a BS story to deflect the actual problem, CREATION of FAKE DOCUMENTS.


Whatever the story is - it does NOT change the fact that a former highly respected name in the OLDSMOBILE "hobby" represented a car as authentic at B-J with FAKE documentation.

nsnarsk65cutlass

I just read this whole post and fake is fake and imho that's fraud.

MDchanic

Far as I know, Fake in order to obtain monetary gain = Fraud, no opinion involved.

- Eric

Koda

What Eric said is true, and fake for any other reason is not a good thing, no matter
how much "it's my car, it's just for me, I'll never sell it without complete disclosure"
rationalization you do, because, at the end of the day, you're deceiving whoever
looks at the car into thinking it's real.

jstrits

Two sides to every story, but I know the bidder personally and he has since filled that cars void in his collection. So I'd say credentials were not an issue.

nsnarsk65cutlass

That is what i meant,representing something that it is not=fraud.

MDchanic

I was just rephrasing without the "IMHO..."

It's not your opinion if it's flat out true.

- Eric