Vader

You can say the document looks different, but the "fonts" are the same.
If the copy looks lighter or heavier, there could be a dozen reasons for it, and another dozen examples on the same document where the print varies. "Oldsmobile" looks heavier, but so does the rest of the copy. Again, different inks, substrate, pressure, printer, and process will all yield slightly different results. But that doesn't mean the font is different. Rockets, Jim Osborne paper... who knows...

MDchanic

It's not deceitful at all.

If you don't KNOW that the house has lead paint, then how could you check "Yes"?
EVERY house built before the mid-seventies has lead paint. That's just the way it is.
If a buyer wants to exercise wishful thinking that's his problem.

- Eric

joe_padavano

And this would be exactly the problem with repro window stickers. WHY do you need one?

BlackGold

My '70 W-30 came with a "CAR SHIPPING ORDER" which also says "DEALER COPY" at the top. It looks just like a window sticker but no rockets around the border.

m371961

I like seeing window stickers at car shows because I find them interesting, educational etc., and they get the interest of people that do not know how different ordering a car could be, compared to today.
People that lie, either about the rarity of their car, or take credit for a build/resto that someone else did, will get their due someday, somehow. (At least, thats how I get by it.)

On another note, a 442 was sold at BJ today with W30 equipment, but it was spelled out that the owner had no documentation and made no claims for it. (Maybe one of the 2 mentioned above?)

TK-65

..

MDchanic

Holy canoli! With clear pictures, the difference is very obvious.

I would add that it looks like Osborne was trying to avoid a perfect reproduction, to allow for the "novelty window sticker" potential without creating a credible fraud platform.
I can't see any other reason for such obvious differences in the modern era of high-quality printing and reproduction.

- Eric

classicmuscle442

Did not realize there were three pages on this subject when I posted, paperwork had me fooled, I feel for the buyer but did he have all the info for that large of a purchase, more money than brains?

Vader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader
Rockets, Jim Osborne paper... who knows...

TK-65 I know. Real 442 sticker and repop Osborne piece. Notice the Osborne sticker is the exact same one used to make the bogus W30 sticker.

WOW,, what a difference 150% high res photos make. But, where's that matching type-writer font? I thought that was the impossile IBM printer font? I guess I was trying to say that I'm sure that GM docs have many, many differences. Unless you have the evidence above, believe it's gospel, and base your decision on 40 year old docs, your sol. So, I'll join the idiot and moron camp that can't see the obvious differences.
Now if I can only get to the more money then brains....
but wait,, if these people are soo stupid, why do they have sooo much money ? Maybe they focus on their profession and have done really well for their families and employees? Maybe they are a surgeon that just operated on your family member? Maybe they own a small business ad squirrel money away ? So maybe they focus their time and efforts on other priorities instead of cars ! maybe.......
Nah.... who am I kidding, that's just crazy talk, they're all bozos !!!

IMO, you just can't blame the buyer for not seeing the differences in the documents.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

jrzybob442

I think all would be OK id the seller claimed the car to be a W-30 and offered that it has 100% date-correct parts on it. But anyone who would go to the trouble to "age" the documents was not looking to make nice repros to show off with the car, the attempt was to defraud.

Here's the dillema - I spend $200K to make a perfect W-30, but how do I get my money out unless I did it for a customer who said "I don't care do it right" and was willing to pay for it.

But cars like this are not done to "do it right" - they are done to sell. And you will not get your moeny back out unless the car is documented.

This is all a reflection of the Auction house hype - it has to be ultra rare, it has to be one of one, it has to be the last car marilyn monroe had sex in because these cars are not being sold to hobbyists.

Even if this car were truly documented, likely none of us could afford it anyway. So they are not really "enthusiast/hobbyist cars" , they are "collector cars". I'll take my '68 442 over one of those "artifacts" any day. They will never be driven they will disappear and not even be seen at car shows - they are freaks that belong in a sideshow - which is what B-J has become.

Vader

I think your seeing things..
Tell me, are these rotating in opposite directions ?

MDchanic

It's not impossible, but if you've had experience with line printers (and, at the time IBM was pretty much the only game in town for such printers in industrial quantities), you will recognize their distinctive type characteristics.

Line printers, as the name implies, printed a line at a time, instead of a character at a time. This made them much faster when doing large bulk jobs.

In the years we are talking about, if you wanted something printed, you would have it Linotyped, that is cast into lead type, or embossed onto lithography plates.
The Linotype machine was the size of a truck,



and required a highly trained and experienced operator and an elaborate keyboard.



The type then had to be composed by another operator into page form.
This was the only way to get a professional result.


For less than professional results, rexograph (for less than about 50 copies)
or mimeograph (for hundreds or thousands of copies) could reproduce typed or handwritten pages.

None of these printing methods could be made to print something different on each piece of paper that went through them. For that, you needed a computer-controlled printer, and, at that time, there were pretty much three options:

The Teletype, which printed on rolls of newsprint using a cylindrical head, in a very odd font,

The IBM ball printer (a variant of the famous typewriter), usually printed on plain paper, and with a much cleaner typeface, and

The line printer, which was very large, and (as you might imagine) printed much, much faster than the preceding types of printers.

Because the line printer printed an entire line of text in a single movement of its print head, each line of print was somewhat unique. An irregularity that would be confined to a single character on a typewriter or a typewriter-style printer would affect an entire line from a line printer. If a strike was uneven in the top-to-bottom direction, the entire line would be a bit light on the top or the botom of the letters. If a strike was uneven in the left-to-right direction, there would be a gentle transition in darkness from one side to the other. The line, in other words, was a single unit, and acted that way.
You can clearly see the characteristic pattern of a line printer in the text posted by TK-65.

Any questions?

- Eric

69ho aurora

Then there are those of us who printed their own window stickers with real IBM line-printers ... That's what I did back in the 1983 when I still had one at work. While the repro invoice blanks of the day weren't perfect copies either (they looked closer than the examples shown here), the printing is dead on. I sealed in it plastic and have been using it for shows for 30 years. Now add the effects of sunlight from all those years of shows, and it is very easily mistakable for the real thing to 99% of people. Sit it down next to an original (I have a few of those for other cars), and you can see the differences in the paper and some of the invoice details. This is without the "molding" they did to this "documentation". And yes, if anyone asks, I tell them I made it myself.

I've thought about making up some new ones (mine is a 2 pager due to the number of options on it) and I could make a much more accurate looking one today doing the entire form. The option printing would be tougher to accomplish than using an old line printer if one was still available somewhere, but rather than using solid black fonts and making it look like it was made today with a laser as most folks do, it can be made to look much more original...

Vader

You can clearly see the characteristic pattern of a line printer in the text posted by TK-65.

Any questions?

- Eric

Great summary, but I do have a question. Just for fun of course.
Can you see the characteristic pattern of a line printer in my post ?
If so, there's the problem.. Nobody has an IBM printer, but some have 2013 technology. All it takes is some software and 2880 x1440 dpi.

Hmmm I think TK-65 bailed ?
all in good fun here..... cheers !

MDchanic

Honestly, I don't think you've actually looked closely at line-printed materials (or you don't remember them from years ago).
If you tried to create a Photoshop macro that produced the same effect, it would be obvious when looking through a loupe, even if it were good enough to fool the naked eye. The ink deposition is completely different.

- Eric

OLD SKL 69

x2

hurst68olds

& SOLD this time around for $275,000 (incl. commision)

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...ln=772&aid=467

hurst68olds

& was $357,500 (incl. commission) at Barrett-Jackson Scottsdale '13

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...n=1314&aid=466

Vader

Yes, I completely understand what your saying. But on a 40 year old weathered document, it would be difficult for an untrained eye to determine a forgery without a loupe or other equipment.
btw, there's over a dozen changes to TK-65's original image....
Just havin some fun.. cheers

MDchanic

Just making the point that it seems to be worth nearly $100,000 to have that trained eye take a look.

Which is to say that this auction game is more a game of paper than it is of cars.

- Eric

Diego

So I guess we can assume it's a documented W-30 at this point?

Or is there another sucker?

I was wondering how much taint there would be for this second auction. Apparently not much, or the new buyer was uninformed (unlikely) .... unless the buyer was the seller.

allyolds68

It's interesting that it pulled $275,000 as "undocumented" considering most of the undocumented one's don't break $150k.

No one's really talked about whether they think the Fisher broadcast card is faked too.

pogo69

no way would I ever trust a thornton car after this.... I'm guessing everyone in the business is glad to see this whole thing go away as quickly as possible

joe_padavano

Again, you are ***-U-MING that Thornton documented and validated the car. None of us here know that. All we know is that Thornton performed the restoration work. Again, a restoration shop will usually perform the work that a customer pays for.

allyolds68

Why should Thornton have to see paperwork before they do a restoration? It's not their car.

4speed455

Thortnons name on this is a testament to the quality of the restoration not to the pedigree of the car. Besides didn't others say Troy was not the Thornton in question?

Now we know the papers are forged but does that meant the car is fake too?

pogo69

Come on ...wake up ...you dont think thorton knew everything going on with this cars reformation...

allyolds68

I hired the place that painted my car for the paint and body work. Should they have made sure I owned the car or made sure it wasn't stolen?

MDchanic

You laugh, but a shop near me took in my wife's friend's car for a repair.
She had recently gone through a messy divorce and was no longer in touch with her ex, but the car was in his name.
The shop would not give her back the car until she showed legal proof that she owned it.
It was no laughing matter for her.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Sorry, but I think you need to wake up, or at least put away the tinfoil hat. The far more likely scenario is that the owner had Thornton restore the car, which may or may not be a completely original W-30. AFTER taking delivery of the restored car, the owner THEN decides to have a "reproduction" window sticker printed, along with the other dubious documentation. How is that in any way Thornton's fault or responsibility?

Dave Siltman

I have no gun in this battle so my comments are strictly for thought and a reflection of my opinion. First of all, that same car was for sale some time ago, and the big Olds heavy-hitters stayed away from it due to documentation or lack thereof. If it was as it was represented to be, and able to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the car would've been owned by someone who is in the upper echelon of Oldsmobile collectors and probably restored and in a private museum somewhere. I can't see where Thornton's reputation, Jeff's or Troy's should even be a issue here. Until someone can PROVE that the Thorntons made up the bogus docs, why should their name be in question? Those guys, the Thorntons, regardless of Jeff and his dad, or Troy and his guys are one of the premier restoration shops specializing in Oldsmobile A-body cars. I have seen other restorations that are in that same category of perfection, and no one has drawn them under the spotlight---don't you think that they have done cars with questionable paperwork? I seriously doubt if Jeff or Troy would risk their livelihood by trying to make a score where they are going to be seen by millions.
Now to the paperwork: again, I have no gun in this battle. TK-65 (Jasen as I kinda know him) is an authority on window stickers, Oldsmobile in particular. Jasen has taken it upon himself, with his time, his money, his resources, and his efforts to amass a collection (possibly second to none) of original window stickers and factory delivery documents. He has also originated and coordinated a dealer registry so we collectors might be able to tell from which dealership our cherished Oldsmobile was sold and delivered as a new car. This takes time and hard work people! Jasen has never once asked for a dime (that I am aware of) to recoup his personal investment, so we as collectors can bear the fruits of his tedious efforts. If Jasen says it's so, then for my money it's so. Whatever Jasen says is the way that it is, then THAT IS THE WAY THAT IT IS.
I am about finished here but one more thing..........If '70 LS6 Chevelle Convertible 4-speeds, that they SUPPOSEDLY only buily 16 or 19 of are somehow at EVERY classic car action these days, and no one is putting every one of those under a microscope, and they are selling north of $200k with regularity, why all of a sudden are the Oldsmobiles which they built 96 taking all the heat?

pogo69

I dont see the world thru the same rosy sun glasses as you joe...thats my opinion , I think they knew about it

pogo69

You can worship these people all you want....owner, restorer auction house...the whole lot stinks to me

hurst68olds

.... because collectors of "the best of the best" are now interested in them.

The '70 LS-6 Chevelle SS454 4-spd convertible number is far north of "16 or 19", and they are put under the same microscope.

hurst68olds

IIRC

The subject W-30 convertible was on eBay in Ohio in '09 (no mention of documentation in the ad) & the auction was won by one of the Thorntons (~$47K). It was restored by Thorntons and presented by a Thornton at Barrett-Jackson Scottsdale '13.

Is my memory accurate?

allyolds68

This 68 H/O was restored by a father and son in PA that are members here on ClassicOlds (at least the son is). By reading the B-J advertisement you'd think Thorntons (Troy for this one, I believe) were the ones that restored it. Now I'm sure they did all the details to make it correct but they didn't do the bodywork or paint

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...n=1000&aid=466

Ctls442

Troy Thornton had nothing to do with this car. The camera at Barrett Jackson showed Jeff Thornton while this car was being auctioned. Every time the car would jump 25 or 50 thousand in price the camera would go to Jeff Thornton and the woman with him.

Stefano

This topic is all over the board!

The reason many of us care is that a real factory built W-30 Convertible , 4 speed with a W-27 rear installed at the factory in Lansing, in a great color combination, is one of the all time greatest Muscle Cars of all times as well as the ultimate Oldsmobile muscle car. Any such car should have its place in history as such. Whether or not an Olds enthusiast has the money to buy the particular vehicle is irrelevant.

If such a car doesn't make your heart go pitter-patter, then you are NOT an Oldsmobile Muscle Car enthusiast.

Here is a legal definition. Fraud has both civil and criminal implications.

"To make a Misrepresentation of an existing material fact, knowing it to be false or making it recklessly without regard to whether it is true or false, intending for someone to rely on the misrepresentation and under circumstances in which such person does rely on it to his or her damage. To practice Fraud; to cheat or trick. To deprive a person of property or any interest, estate, or right by fraud, deceit, or artifice.

Intent to defraud means an intention to deceive another person, and to induce such other person, in reliance upon such deception, to assume, create, transfer, alter, or terminate a right, obligation, or power with reference to property."

No auction company can know all the facts about 100% of the cars which it runs across the block! They are not experts on every make and model of car, nor were they present when each vehicle was found and then ultimately restored. They have to rely on the info provided to them by the consignor. The consignor is responsible for his representations about his own car.

I for one would like to know who owned this car as well as who restored it? I am also very curious as to who had the fake paperwork made up and who paid to have it made.

allyolds68

I know Troy is in Quakertown but unless there are two Troys (and I'm not saying this might not be the case), or the website is not up to date, he is part of Thornton Classics as well:

http://www.thorntonclassics.com/

joe_padavano

Then don't buy anything from them. Your problem is solved.