dre

Car stripped to the metal. I'm told once you apply the all metal body filler, then apply the regular body filler, it should be sprayed with the epoxy primer filler. Can some one please recommend the best epoxy filler to use and elaborate a little more on the process?

69442C

Here's the drill on what to do. And to clarify, there are no epoxy filler primers. There is an epoxy primer and then there are urethane primer fillers. The epoxy primer seals the metal and does not have any filling qualities.

Once the car is stripped (and assuming any chemical strippers have been cleaned up and neutralized) everything should be sanded with either 150 or 180 grit paper. Use a DA if you have one and sand everything well. Once this is done and everything is cleaned correctly, spray a couple of coats of epoxy primer. I use PPG products so you can use any of the DP colors. DP50, for example is gray. Use the DP402 hardner too. Once the epoxy has been sprayed and dried (usually about 24 hours is good) scuff the areas that require body work with 80-100 grit paper and apply your filler on top of the epoxy. When the plastic work is done, spray those areas with more epoxy. Make sure to feather your plastic work sanding with 180 paper out into the first coat of epoxy so you have a roughened surface for the epoxy being sprayed over the repaired areas to bond to. Don't worry about going over all the 180 as it's not necessary. I would let that epoxy dry for a day or two, come back and sand everything with 180 and then apply the filler primer. With PPG, I use DPS3055 which can be reduced to provide a high build or a normal build depending on how much reducer is used. This filler primer uses hardner DCX3030. Your paint supplier will be able to help with everything you need. Spray a couple of coats of the filler primer, let it dry a day or two and then you can start to block sand to get everyting nice and straight. Eventually work your final sanding to a 600-800 wet depending on the type of final finish you will apply. And use proper respirators when spraying any paint products.

geckonz08

Damned good reply.
mike

dre

Thank you for the advice. As I stripped the paint to the metal I noticed that some of the metal had been etched from a previous owner. Looks as though they didn't use a DA sander. My other question would be, in regards to the etched metal. How should I handle those areas that had been etched? I've been told it would require some body filler also. Will those etches show up with the1-2 coats of epoxy primer?

Dapapadon

Can't really say on the etched metal w/o seeing it. But when in dought, DA. Overall I'd say people are mixed on wether to etch or not. I've done it on smaller pieces but on big panels I don't cause I'm not sure I can get it neutralized. Meaning I'm afraid I'll leave some acid somewhere and it will show up later.

Anyway, I wanted to comment about PPG's DP epoxy primer. I take a body class at the local community college. It's kind'a on going, I've done it on & off for over 3 years. As 69442c said some of the guys there put down two full wet coats of DP then do thier plastic (bondo) work over it. I usually do the plastic first then DP. But what I really wanted to comment on is we let the DP set for about an hour or so then shoot the primer surfacer over it.

Most everyone there uses 5 Star primer surfacer too. It's cheaper than PPG's. No problems topcoating with PPG paints.

Don

69442C

Etching of the metal is not necessary with the products offered today. So I'd recommend that you skip it. I've never done it and have never had any problems. At one point, the thinking was to use an etching primer but with the epoxy products on the market today, the etching primers are not popular anymore. Before you spray anything on the panels, DA the crap out of them with 150 or 180 regardless of what was done previously.

The intent of the epoxy is to completely seal the metal to prevent moisture from getting to it as moisture causes rust. So the manufacturers will tell you to put down epoxy and do plastic work on top of it. As Dapapadon points out, some people will do their plastic work first and then apply the epoxy. I have done this myself and also with plastic work over the epoxy. I think the issue is that companies know that polyester resin (body plastic) is not waterproof and moisture can get to the bare metal under it if there is not an epoxy barrier. If the plastic work is completed in a short time frame and is kept away from the elements, I don't personally see an issue with applying the filler to the bare metal. If the plastic could sit exposed for a a while and you are in a humid area, I would apply the filler over the epoxy.
And yes, the filler primer can be sprayed over the epoxy after about an hour without any sanding to the epoxy. If you do the plastic work to the metal and have it finished, then spray epoxy, let it sit for about an hour and then put down you primer surfacer. Just make sure the primer surfacer is a 2 part system. Again, the issue is moisture and the urethane primers will not alllow water to pass through them. The old lacquer primers from days past were not waterproof and if they were exposed to the elements, rust could form on the metal under the primer or it could allow the primer to start to peel. We used to wet sand some of that old lacquer primer so we were really causing problems without really knowing it. Then again, I liked the price of the older paints as opposed to what things cost today.

dre

Thank you for your input. This was very helpful! I have one more question to ask about using "All Metal" as the body filler. After my research and talking to a few paint suppliers, I understand this needs to be applied to bare metal. With that being said, it is said to waterproof and not let water or moisture to get to the metal and cause the rusting, bubbling, etc. Please elaborate.....

JRVintage

The ALL Metal body filler should go on the bare metal. Do all the sanding on this dry, then seal with the epoxy.

dre

What about applying any rust treatment before applying the all metal?

69442C

As was mentioned, apply the All Metal directly to the bare metal and finish it off with 150 or 180. At that point, apply the epoxy and primer filler.

I wouldn't play around with any rust treatments on the exterior sheetmetal. If there is rust on the panel, you need to remove it by sanding, grinding, heavy duty wire brush or even lightly sandblasting it. If there are holes, you'll need to see how bad they are and if that section of metal needs to be replaced or if you can repair it.

Any of the polyester resins (body plastic or Bondo as a lot of people will call it due to that being a popular name brand) will allow water to pass through and get to the metal below it. Not good to have that happen. All Metal and Fiberglass Filler are waterproof and will not allow water to penetrate them. Fiberglass filler is not fiberglass and resin but an actual filler product that you apply just like bondo. It does have some fiberglass strands in it so it's usually best to finish over this with a light coat of bondo which could be done before epoxy primer. The FG filler or All Metal is what should be used over any weld repairs in case a pin hole exists in the metal. It will fill the tiny hole and not allow water to penetrate.

Rocket Richard

This is a great thread. I'm learning a lot here. Question:
69442C says "filler primer"
Dapapadon says "primer surfacer"

Are you guys talking about the same thing
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think the idea is you put on a first coat of primer to seal the metal, and then a different kind of primer after to fill in small voids and make a smoother surface right?

And what do you guys recommend for paint guns with these primers?

Thanks,
Rich

69442C

Rick, yes, I believe we are talking about the same thing. A primer is a surfacer and it comes in various different types. Some are used to just provide a bond to whatever you are coving and all new paint to adhere to it. Others, such as a primer filler, can provide a "build" effect meaning they will put down a thicker covering to allow sanding of the panel in an attempt to fill small imperfections or to fill in minor low spots. Depending on how many coats you apply, you can fill in a lot of sanding marks or imperfections. Just stay away from any lacquer primers if you ever would come across them as they are not all that great. Yes, this is what was used in years past but they are not as stable as the newer products and can actually shrink or swell with the reducers in the finish paint leaving a less than desirable final result.

Epoxy on the bare metal is where to start, a primer with a build quality to smooth the panel and take care of any imperfections, a sealer (oh boy, now I did it by throwing this out there) and then color or color and clear. A sealer is a final primer before the color and sealers are not sanded. They are sprayed, allowed to dry for about 30 minutes and then the color is sprayed. The PPG epoxy primers can be reduced to work as a sealer and I usually do it.

There are many paint guns to choose from and the prices can range from less than $100 all the way to $500 and more. There are HVLP guns (high volume low pressure) but you need to watch how many CFM youl will need from your compressor. Most primers are supposed to be sprayed with a larger orifice in the gun such as a 1.8mm where colors/clears are down around 1.3mm. But I have sprayed primer and color with a 1.3mm and it works fine. There are the old siphon guns which will do fine too and will usually be your lowest price. It all depends on how much painting you want to do and what type of result you are looking for. The compressor and the air filtration is also equally important. Need to watch out for moisture in your air supply as that will ruin your day pretty quickly.

mission442

I think you are getting the right info,it can be confusing. I have been doing paint and body work for over 25 years. I would like to add that if you use a brand of paint, stick with that brand like PPG. Most paint are compatible but you will always get your best results with using the same brand from start to finish. PPG is the only brand of paint I will use, it might be a little pricey. But doing the job twice can cost a whole lot more in time and money.

Rocket Richard

OK, so... (and I know, I'm repeating here, but bear with me)
-two coats of epoxy primer over bare metal and any body filler.
-if I need to sand anything down, best to wait 1 to 2 days and sand with 180 grit, otherwise wait an hour for the next primer coats
-2 coats of a high build type primer to smooth out the surface, wait 1 to 2 days to dry
-block sand, working down to wet sanding to get it super smooth
-1 coat of sealer primer, which can be a reduced PPG epoxy primer
-wait 30 mins and apply top coats, clear coats

Still need to know wait times in between top coats and clear coats but I'm sure that info is in the product literature.

Yes, the spray gun and compressor issue is making my head spin lately. I like the idea of having a gun for primers and another for color & clear mainly because the tip size would be correct... if tip size gives me troubles I wouldn't quite know how to deal with that. I don't plan on doing a lot of painting, but my car is a full size Olds so a smaller gun might be too small for the job. At least I have a lot of time to think about this while I'm patching up rusty panels.

citcapp

Great thread. Easy to understand. I am at the stage where I needed this information

Dapapadon

You've got the correct order. Just remember block sanding sometimes leads to more application of primer. I should say more often then not. It's not unusual to add primer a second or third time.

Don

69442C

You have been given the basics and there is more to painting what has been mention. You'll need to understand the reducers and hardners that get used too. Here is a link that should get you deep enough into the PPG Refinish website where you can view the TDS (technical data sheets) for the various products. Just click on any of the tabs and it will give you a drop down with the various products sold in that group.

https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProduc...c-04551702a5df

For a complete refinish, here is what I use working from bare metal up to finished product:
Epoxy Primer DP__ LF(I use 50 or 90 depending on the application)
Epoxy Hardner DP402LF
DT8__ Reducer (860,870,895 based on temp. 860 for cooler,895 for hot)
DPS3035 Primer
DCX3030 hardner
DT___ reducer
Epoxy, hardner and reduced as a sealer
DBC____ Color and DT___ reducer
DCU2021 Clear
DCX61 hardner for the clear
DT___ reducer

You will also need a wax and grease remover and for some reason I use Dupont 3901 Final Wash. You will also need tack rags, paint strainers and mixing sticks. If you do not have a feel for the cost of this stuff, be prepared to spend some serious money. I figure the cost for paint materials is between $1500 - $2000 and maybe a little more. PPG does have a Shop Line brand of products which can save you some money so if this is just a daily driver, then go in that direction. I usually do higher end stuff so I use the more expensive products.

I would also suggest a video on painting if you are new to this. This will show more of the things involved. This is a skill that takes practice so you may want to play around with a junk panel before you dive into the deep end of the pool especially with the cost of these materials.

mission442

I was just wondering if anyone has uesed the PPG 2002 clear or the K36 2K primer. K36 has been around for a very long time, and I think it's the only one that has never been changed. I use both and have had great results. 2002 clear is a high gloss clear, and great for overall paint jobs. If your ever get a chance to try this clear. You might never use 2021 again on overall paint jobs. It buffs very easy as well.

69442C

I have used the K36 and the 2002 in the past and had good results with both. My supplier no longer carries the 2002 in gallon cans and have replaced it with the 2021. I found both clears to be very good and I was pleased with the results from both products.

stan 65 cutlass

great thread, im at the same bare metal stage and am following along, after sanding to bare metal is this where the wax and grease remover is used before priming? i dont wanna blow the first step. thanx

69442C

Yes, always clean before spraying the primers and before spraying the sealer. Once sealer is applied, don't touch it or the color coat other than lightly wiping it with a tack cloth when the sealer is dry or color is dry if you see something on it. Best to try to leave them alone if you can.

In summary, clean bare prepped metal and apply epoxy. If epoxy will just flash off and then have primer applied, don't clean the epoxy. Let it flash and then apply primer. When you finish sanding the primer clean it before spraying more primer or applying the final sealer or color if you don't use sealer. When using the wax grease remover, use a couple of automotive paper towels and get them good and wet. Wipe down the panel and follow over it with a couple of more dry towels to help dry it although it will dry on it's own quickly. You might have to break the panel down into several sections rather than doing it all at once. Wash everything before you tape it up, tape it off and then wash it again before you're ready for a final tack and spray.

When you clean the parts or panels wear suitable paint gloves so you don't contaminate the surface with any oils from your hands. After you "wash" it, wipe it with a tack rag.

Also, be sure to blow the panel(s) off well and get into all the small areas. Most dirt in paint work comes from the car itself. If possible, wash the car before you start this work and spray everyting down with a hose even under the car to get rid of any loose dirt.

I'd also get a paint suit (cheap from Eastwood) as this will keep small fuzzie things from coming off your clothes and getting into the paint. Only wear this for the final sealer and color as primer will be sanded anyway. Even consider a "head sock" as this will keep hair out of the finished product too. Also cheap from Eastwood. Watch your air hose when leaning over the hood and roof and clean it off it dirty so nothing falls off of it. This is where a wet floor can get you in trouble as water on an air hose can drip onto a hood, roof or deck lid.

The Dupont Final wash evaporates quickly so don't leave the lid off the car for extended times.

stan 65 cutlass

thanx, you answered alot of questions for me,and others im sure

Rocket Richard

All good info
Thanks guys.

dre

appreciate the feedback everyone!! Very helpful!!!

oleary

almost makes you think you can do this yourself...well I am going to try

oldsguybry

great thread , this will come in handy...thanks

drec02

Good post! Sometimes I use the Deltron products also they work great in repair jobs.

Rocket Richard

This was a good thread, so I just went back to have another look.

Dre, how did things go with your paint job?

Bernhard

Good thread
When spraying automotive paint you should do it in a spray booth and be suited up with a supply air hood.
Before we did any on frame repaint the car would be power washed top to bottom then washed with a wax and grease remover. This was the first step in the defence against dust and fish eyes.
Air tools only got one drop of oil a day and there was a dryer and moister traps on the air lines. Two much oil leads to fish eyes to little to tool failure.
We were taught to pour the wax and grease remover on to the shop rags/towels with out the rag/towel touching the can this was done not to put contaminants back into the wax and grease remover can.
All metal in my opinion is no better than any quality plastic filler it is just a filler nothing more nothing less.
We were taught to always epoxy prime them apply plastic filler
If time is not an issue I always liked to let the epoxy primer set up over night then scuff and then apply filler to the epoxy primer.
After all the filling work was done I would scuff the rest of the car and apply another coat or two of epoxy. Then I would spray my high solid primer. In the 80's we were aware of mill thickness and I think it is just as important today to keep the mill thickness of all the paint products to with in spec. There is a trend to over use high solid primer and remove body lines with its over use. High solid primer is like skim coating your whole car in plastic filler it just makes you feel better because its a primer not bondo / plastic filler same result though. After the high solid was sprayed we would spray a contrasting color guide coat.
Auto body products are toxic and meant for the pro's to use in a controlled environment with training and product knowledge for there safe use.

oldsguybry

Man , it seems my pockets are never going to be deep enough to get my car done someday .