Frame: Paint or Powdercoat?
#1
Frame: Paint or Powdercoat?
All,
What are all of your thoughts on painting versus powdercoating a frame? Obviously if I wanted to keep my '69 H/O all original I would paint it, but I'm building this car to drive so I thought powdercoating would be more rugged. Are there any other issues I might not know about with powdercoating?
Thanks in advance.
Mike
What are all of your thoughts on painting versus powdercoating a frame? Obviously if I wanted to keep my '69 H/O all original I would paint it, but I'm building this car to drive so I thought powdercoating would be more rugged. Are there any other issues I might not know about with powdercoating?
Thanks in advance.
Mike
#2
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
I think [owdercoating is definitely more rugged and less maintenance, but more costly. If you're building a driver, I don't think it will make a whole lot of difference whether you powder coat or paint. The underside of the car takes a real beating and even powder coat will chip and start rusting. Just strip and prep the frame nicely, then paint it. If you're at all concerned about the chipping or rust, consider shooting a coat of undercoating onto it. Keep the bottom of the car clean; especially in the winter. Spend the extra coin and pressure wash the road crud off the bottom. It will go a long way to keeping corrosion down.
#4
i built my Rallye 350 to be a nice driver. i used rubberized undercoat on it. it was 1999 when i did it and it looks great now. i am doing a 70 convertible 442 now for someone else, he looked at mine and wants the same thing. so here are two votes for undercoat. (rubberized undercoat)
#6
POR15 is about the closest you can get to "powdercoat in a can"...
If the frame is properly cleaned and prepped, POR15 will stick well AND it will withstand a beating. Use the "dauber" sticks to brush it inside the frame.
The POR15 semigloss black standard paint would be my choice. The chassiscote black is a little glossier if you wish to topcoat with it...
Either way, two coats minimum should do ya...
If the frame is properly cleaned and prepped, POR15 will stick well AND it will withstand a beating. Use the "dauber" sticks to brush it inside the frame.
The POR15 semigloss black standard paint would be my choice. The chassiscote black is a little glossier if you wish to topcoat with it...
Either way, two coats minimum should do ya...
#8
Powdercoat, no question. There are numerous shops around the country who specialize in sandblasting and powdercoating car frames. Here in Northern VA, it runs just under $1000. Of course, then you need stainless brake lines, etc, etc...
#10
While this is hearsay, and could be bs, I've heard some issues with powdercoating and many restorers are moving away from it. Apparently there's been some problems with the coating cracking and flaking away. Perhaps this is from the frame flexing from torque?
In any event, that's just what I've heard. Not sure how true it is, but might be worth investigating a bit before spending the $.
In any event, that's just what I've heard. Not sure how true it is, but might be worth investigating a bit before spending the $.
#12
yes. i primered it then just used the rattle can of Mar Hyde rubberized undercoat. wal mart did carry it. i need some for the car i am doing but they quit carrying it around my area. i may go with the dupli color brand on the car that i am doing. if you go with this, i can't remember how much it took but think it will be at least 12 cans for the frame and bottom side of the floor boards / rear wheel wells.
#13
While this is hearsay, and could be bs, I've heard some issues with powdercoating and many restorers are moving away from it. Apparently there's been some problems with the coating cracking and flaking away. Perhaps this is from the frame flexing from torque?
In any event, that's just what I've heard. Not sure how true it is, but might be worth investigating a bit before spending the $.
In any event, that's just what I've heard. Not sure how true it is, but might be worth investigating a bit before spending the $.
#14
just letting everyone know
this may be obvious to most people but some of my 4 wheeler customers did not know that the frame has to be totally bare and sandblasted to powder coat them. it can not be together and can't have any rubber or grease of any kind on it. if everything is done proper it is by far the best way to go but is much more expensive. most of the time you get what you pay for but there is a place in Indianapolis Indiana that is the best i have seen and the cheapest i have seen. i do not know what they charge for a car frame but the 4 wheelers i have had done were great and priced right.
#15
Foundation
I had the frame powder coated on my convert six or so years ago and it has a couple of chips in it and it has not been on the road yet!! Just touched it up with paint...a '57 98 convert was on E-bay last year and they claimed that the frame had been galvanized...so, if it was hot dipped then that means every nook and cranny would be cooked and coated with zinc! (840F) cha cha cha...then paint it the colour of your choice I hadn't thought of that before... If you go through the trouble of stripping the frame with the body off then it should be worth the extra bucks..
#16
I guess this would not apply to the frame since most of the mounting hardware is larger diameter and tolerances aren't that great but what about this? Doesn't powder coating decrease the inner diameter of smaller gauge holes and possibly obstruct insertion of hardware? And, what do you do about threaded holes like on heads/blocks and possibly captive nuts in the frame (not sure about that though, depends upon application)? I have had trouble even with paint in this respect but of course paint is much softer and easier to remove.
#17
I would go with the POR 15. I had a set of valve covers on my 394 powder coated. They looked good but after a few years they started to chip around the PCV valve hole and where the gasket mated against the valve cover and the head.
#18
I guess this would not apply to the frame since most of the mounting hardware is larger diameter and tolerances aren't that great but what about this? Doesn't powder coating decrease the inner diameter of smaller gauge holes and possibly obstruct insertion of hardware? And, what do you do about threaded holes like on heads/blocks and possibly captive nuts in the frame (not sure about that though, depends upon application)? I have had trouble even with paint in this respect but of course paint is much softer and easier to remove.
#19
The powdercoat shop I am using is charging just under $600 for the sandblasting and powdercoating. I have seen 4 wheelers, motorcycles and dirt race car frames that stand up to abuse and look and clean up like new. That is why I went the powdercoating route - What also interested me was how the powder can really get into the narrow areas (i.e. the framed boxed areas.
They ask me what I want taped off and they always plug the threaded holes with heat resistant plugs.
#20
There is a shop in wi muscle car restoration that does a 7 layer strip and dip
and then a e coat . Looks cool on there website If I was doing a frame I would look into it I know they do some high end cars and restorations lots of mopar and had a 71 or 72 w-30 on there
and then a e coat . Looks cool on there website If I was doing a frame I would look into it I know they do some high end cars and restorations lots of mopar and had a 71 or 72 w-30 on there
#21
I'm a big one for powdercoat.
It's durable, looks great, and doesn't scratch as easy.
I just had the pullies and waterneck powdercoated flat black, and a lot of stuff on the Alero is now getting powdercoated. Look sweet
It's durable, looks great, and doesn't scratch as easy.
I just had the pullies and waterneck powdercoated flat black, and a lot of stuff on the Alero is now getting powdercoated. Look sweet
#22
I agree with OLDS64 and Rob. I really like POR 15. I sandblasted my frame then put 2 coats of POR 15 on it the after about 4 hours I used a top coat on it since the POR 15 is UV sensitive.I even used it on my engine and floor as well.I did however spray the POR 15 on.
#23
It is ironic this thread has become active again. I am now at the point where I need to make the decision between paint and powdercoat. Reading all the replies it seems it is split pretty much down the middle. It seems it will just come down to cost and personal preference.
#26
POR stands for Paint Over Rust. POR-15 needs rust to hold it on. You cannot make metal smooth and clean then put on POR-15. That goes against what they recommend. Sounds like people do do this however. I guess its all up to how far you want to go.
There are a lot of resto paints on the market that are better than POR-15.
There are a lot of resto paints on the market that are better than POR-15.
#27
Powdercoating is not very unforgiving when it come to chips. I had me front control armes coated and after 3000 miles are very chiped. If I had it to do over, paint is the way I would go, that way they can be touched up as needed.
#30
There are a lot of resto paints on the market that are better than POR-15.
#31
I have mixed feelings on POR15.
This is my dubya 30 with POR frame, and powder coated parts. The body and firewall were done with DP90 and eurethane black single stage.
When I started my restoration, the frame and suspension was the first thing I did. I thought that POR was the only way to go, so I bought all the prep stuff, paint, and top coat. It cost about $300. The prep was a pain. You cant seem to rinse off the metal ready without getting flash rust. (I know, it needs rust to stick), and the metal ready dries on before it does its job. Then you have to rinse and scrub with scotch brite to get it off. Then still use a prep solvent wash to get it clean enough. The "window of opportunity" to spray a second coat is too short. I spent all day prepping the frame, cleaning and tacking it to paint. By the time you spray, it is too late in the day for the second coat. So, in the middle of the night, I'm spraying the second coat. Unfortunately the first coat was now too dry and the second coat bubble really bad because it wouldn't stick to the first coat. Ruined that batch of paint. Waited until the next day and sanded off the bubbles. Now the entire frame had to be sanded to get the gloss off so the next coat would stick. Well, there are a lot of nooks and crannies you cant get into to sand, so then you have to use POR's compatible self etching primer for the areas that you can't sand. More $$$ and another week for shipping....
Next week... Sand, primer etch, solvent wash, set up paint area and do it all over again. This time I got the top coat on before the POR was glossed over.
The next year, I was ready to do the underside of the body and the firewall. This time I used PPG DP90 epoxy primer and a eurethane single stage black paint. All I had to do was clean, sand the old paint, wipe down with PRE solvent, and paint. 2 coats of DP90 laid down super nice and easy. No problems. Then I sprayed 2 coats gloss black with a flattener added. No problem, turned out beautiful.
Moral of the story... I will never use POR products again. There are other products easier to use, cost less, and are a better product! POR=$300+, and DP90 and single stage paint= $240.
Oh, and the debate over powder coat or paint. I choose paint. However, all the small parts are way easier to drop off at the blaster and have powder coated than trying to prep and paint them. It only cost me about $250 to have all the a-arms, x-member, knuckles, brackets, and little pieces, etc blasted and coated.
This is my dubya 30 with POR frame, and powder coated parts. The body and firewall were done with DP90 and eurethane black single stage.
When I started my restoration, the frame and suspension was the first thing I did. I thought that POR was the only way to go, so I bought all the prep stuff, paint, and top coat. It cost about $300. The prep was a pain. You cant seem to rinse off the metal ready without getting flash rust. (I know, it needs rust to stick), and the metal ready dries on before it does its job. Then you have to rinse and scrub with scotch brite to get it off. Then still use a prep solvent wash to get it clean enough. The "window of opportunity" to spray a second coat is too short. I spent all day prepping the frame, cleaning and tacking it to paint. By the time you spray, it is too late in the day for the second coat. So, in the middle of the night, I'm spraying the second coat. Unfortunately the first coat was now too dry and the second coat bubble really bad because it wouldn't stick to the first coat. Ruined that batch of paint. Waited until the next day and sanded off the bubbles. Now the entire frame had to be sanded to get the gloss off so the next coat would stick. Well, there are a lot of nooks and crannies you cant get into to sand, so then you have to use POR's compatible self etching primer for the areas that you can't sand. More $$$ and another week for shipping....
Next week... Sand, primer etch, solvent wash, set up paint area and do it all over again. This time I got the top coat on before the POR was glossed over.
The next year, I was ready to do the underside of the body and the firewall. This time I used PPG DP90 epoxy primer and a eurethane single stage black paint. All I had to do was clean, sand the old paint, wipe down with PRE solvent, and paint. 2 coats of DP90 laid down super nice and easy. No problems. Then I sprayed 2 coats gloss black with a flattener added. No problem, turned out beautiful.
Moral of the story... I will never use POR products again. There are other products easier to use, cost less, and are a better product! POR=$300+, and DP90 and single stage paint= $240.
Oh, and the debate over powder coat or paint. I choose paint. However, all the small parts are way easier to drop off at the blaster and have powder coated than trying to prep and paint them. It only cost me about $250 to have all the a-arms, x-member, knuckles, brackets, and little pieces, etc blasted and coated.
#33
POR15 is a little tricky, as it is different than regular paint. It dries fast in humid air, and slowly in dry air. You have to do your homework ahead of time and figure out the plan of attack. Because if it dries too much and you need a second coat, you are in trouble.
Do not allow distractions and monitor the cure rate well. Prepare to stay up late if needed (I have done that before...)
Paint large items on dry air day, like right after a dry cold front comes in. In 20% humidity, the stuff takes up to 4 hours to dry enough for the first coat. In 75% humidity, it might take 30 minutes. Start early in the day, too.
Guys in the humid areas might have more trouble with POR15...
Do not allow distractions and monitor the cure rate well. Prepare to stay up late if needed (I have done that before...)
Paint large items on dry air day, like right after a dry cold front comes in. In 20% humidity, the stuff takes up to 4 hours to dry enough for the first coat. In 75% humidity, it might take 30 minutes. Start early in the day, too.
Guys in the humid areas might have more trouble with POR15...
Last edited by Lady72nRob71; October 2nd, 2009 at 09:32 AM.
#34
Try KBS coatings instead of POR-15. I have never used por except for the por patch which is a great product. The KBS just knock off the loose material and clean with wax and grease remover, then I used a product Purple Power rust neutralizer as my primer. I Did not have to use all the other that Por recommends you use. I did a second coat of the KBS a couple days later after dulling with a red scotch brite pad and had no issues with adhering or lifting of the first coat. I did the whole frame for about $120.00 in materials.
#35
I have done both and I would say I liked the powder coat better but I did have to take the frame to the powder coater and pick it up....If you are on a limited budget and or going to do it at the house then I would do POR-15........ I didn't put a second coat on my frame as I brushed it on so I did not experience the problems of the timing of the second coat. The product does flow out well so you can brush it on on not have a lot of brush marks....... On other cars that I did not do a frame off I simply wire brushed the crud off the frame and then painted it with a brush...... That to me is the beauty of POR-15......You do not have to do near the preparation to use.....actually POR-15 likes to attack rust...It needs it to grip......So on a job you don't want to separate the car from the body it is a much better choice.
#36
I have mixed feelings on POR15.
This is my dubya 30 with POR frame, and powder coated parts. The body and firewall were done with DP90 and eurethane black single stage.
When I started my restoration, the frame and suspension was the first thing I did. I thought that POR was the only way to go, so I bought all the prep stuff, paint, and top coat. It cost about $300. The prep was a pain. You cant seem to rinse off the metal ready without getting flash rust. (I know, it needs rust to stick), and the metal ready dries on before it does its job. Then you have to rinse and scrub with scotch brite to get it off. Then still use a prep solvent wash to get it clean enough. The "window of opportunity" to spray a second coat is too short. I spent all day prepping the frame, cleaning and tacking it to paint. By the time you spray, it is too late in the day for the second coat. So, in the middle of the night, I'm spraying the second coat. Unfortunately the first coat was now too dry and the second coat bubble really bad because it wouldn't stick to the first coat. Ruined that batch of paint. Waited until the next day and sanded off the bubbles. Now the entire frame had to be sanded to get the gloss off so the next coat would stick. Well, there are a lot of nooks and crannies you cant get into to sand, so then you have to use POR's compatible self etching primer for the areas that you can't sand. More $$$ and another week for shipping....
Next week... Sand, primer etch, solvent wash, set up paint area and do it all over again. This time I got the top coat on before the POR was glossed over.
The next year, I was ready to do the underside of the body and the firewall. This time I used PPG DP90 epoxy primer and a eurethane single stage black paint. All I had to do was clean, sand the old paint, wipe down with PRE solvent, and paint. 2 coats of DP90 laid down super nice and easy. No problems. Then I sprayed 2 coats gloss black with a flattener added. No problem, turned out beautiful.
Moral of the story... I will never use POR products again. There are other products easier to use, cost less, and are a better product! POR=$300+, and DP90 and single stage paint= $240.
Oh, and the debate over powder coat or paint. I choose paint. However, all the small parts are way easier to drop off at the blaster and have powder coated than trying to prep and paint them. It only cost me about $250 to have all the a-arms, x-member, knuckles, brackets, and little pieces, etc blasted and coated.
This is my dubya 30 with POR frame, and powder coated parts. The body and firewall were done with DP90 and eurethane black single stage.
When I started my restoration, the frame and suspension was the first thing I did. I thought that POR was the only way to go, so I bought all the prep stuff, paint, and top coat. It cost about $300. The prep was a pain. You cant seem to rinse off the metal ready without getting flash rust. (I know, it needs rust to stick), and the metal ready dries on before it does its job. Then you have to rinse and scrub with scotch brite to get it off. Then still use a prep solvent wash to get it clean enough. The "window of opportunity" to spray a second coat is too short. I spent all day prepping the frame, cleaning and tacking it to paint. By the time you spray, it is too late in the day for the second coat. So, in the middle of the night, I'm spraying the second coat. Unfortunately the first coat was now too dry and the second coat bubble really bad because it wouldn't stick to the first coat. Ruined that batch of paint. Waited until the next day and sanded off the bubbles. Now the entire frame had to be sanded to get the gloss off so the next coat would stick. Well, there are a lot of nooks and crannies you cant get into to sand, so then you have to use POR's compatible self etching primer for the areas that you can't sand. More $$$ and another week for shipping....
Next week... Sand, primer etch, solvent wash, set up paint area and do it all over again. This time I got the top coat on before the POR was glossed over.
The next year, I was ready to do the underside of the body and the firewall. This time I used PPG DP90 epoxy primer and a eurethane single stage black paint. All I had to do was clean, sand the old paint, wipe down with PRE solvent, and paint. 2 coats of DP90 laid down super nice and easy. No problems. Then I sprayed 2 coats gloss black with a flattener added. No problem, turned out beautiful.
Moral of the story... I will never use POR products again. There are other products easier to use, cost less, and are a better product! POR=$300+, and DP90 and single stage paint= $240.
Oh, and the debate over powder coat or paint. I choose paint. However, all the small parts are way easier to drop off at the blaster and have powder coated than trying to prep and paint them. It only cost me about $250 to have all the a-arms, x-member, knuckles, brackets, and little pieces, etc blasted and coated.
That firewall does look really great, just the perfect level of gloss.
#37
Thats why I said it depends on how far you want to go with your resto. POR is fine on a weekend driver that you arent that concerned about. However on a top end resto its not even considered. High level restos use quality materials, and POR isnt on the list.
#38
What do you think about the idea that if the frame is powder coated than all the suspension components should be powder coated as well? Is it noticeable if I were to paint certain pieces and powder coat others?
#39
High level restos use quality materials, and POR isnt on the list.
#40
As far as POR, my point was that there are other products out there that yield the same or better results with less prep, effort, and $$$. And that is probably why you don't see it in resto shops. So if you want to spend more $, buy more products, and wait for the moon and the stars to line up for a perfect application of POR, by all means.... Go ahead.
Last edited by MX442; October 5th, 2009 at 08:21 AM.